Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.

[RJM]

There is no reason why Jesus should have any trouble proving he was Jesus .. except
..naturally, Thomas thought that he'd died on the cross, so was astounded.

John 20: 24-29
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

https://biblehub.com/kjv/john/20.htm

The chapter is written about the resurrected Christ. It's the whole point and purpose of the chapter.

Don't tell me -- John is corrupted ...

EDIT
As in: the wounds are true, but the rest is false, that doesn't suit

 

[muhammad_isa]

The chapter is written about the resurrected Christ. It's the whole point and purpose of the chapter.

All that tells us is that the author of that chapter believed that Christ came back from the dead.
I don't blame him .. everybody seemed to think that.

 

[RJM]

All that tells us is that the author of that chapter ...

Which you have read?

 

[Ella S.]

No, nothing mysterious about it at all.

I am saying that many Christians resort to "it's a mystery", when certain Christian concepts or doctrine is debated.
There is nothing illogical about miracles.
The raising of Jesus to "heaven" and his consequent return comes under that heading.

Jesus being both a man AND G-d does not, imo.
It's a loaded concept, which takes the focus of faith from G-d / Yahweh onto a human being.

How do you define miracles?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you define miracles?

Like everybody else does.
Something that seems to defy physical laws. Feeding 5000 people with a few loaves of bread. Blind people having sight restored.
Moon splitting in two. Walking on water. etc.

 

[Ella S.]

Like everybody else does.
Something that seems to defy physical laws. Feeding 5000 people with a few loaves of bread. Blind people having sight restored.
Moon splitting in two. Walking on water. etc.

My knowledge of physics is shoddy at best, so take this with a grain of salt.

As far as I understand, physical laws are observations of patterns in nature that have never been contradicted. If an exception to a physical law were to be found, it would no longer be a law.

So miracles do seem to be illogical, for two reasons:

1.) Deductively, if my understanding of physical laws is accurate, then physical laws cannot be defied. If they are defied, then they are no longer physical laws.
2.) Inductively, given that physical laws have never been contradicted, we would expect them to continue to not be contradicted.

 

[yitzak tover]

Is this the phrase you mean?

There have been a few quite heated discussions about it on this site.
I personally believe the idea is preposterous, considering the personality of Jesus -- that he lied to his followers and stood there laughing while another was crucified in his place. I believe it is taken from the apocrypha.

What is your take?

Jesus had nothing to do with it. he was taken up by god folks any god that requires blood of an innocent man on cross in order to forgive sins is unworthy of worship its similar to the pagan aztec god who also required blood sacrifice

 

[yitzak tover]

Like everybody else does.
Something that seems to defy physical laws. Feeding 5000 people with a few loaves of bread. Blind people having sight restored.
Moon splitting in two. Walking on water. etc.

moon has not been split yet. quran says ' at the hour moon will be split '

 

[yitzak tover]

@Ismat
However I see that you allow the Gospel of John as a valid New Testament scriptural source? I believe its authenticity and value is questioned by many Muslims?

not only by muslims but biblical scholars as well. bart erman ' none of the gospels were even written by any of the 4 apostles and all were written in greek that no apostle spoke and John 3 16 the backbone of christianity was a much later addition '

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Now, before I send the 2nd verse of the Quran about my topic. I want some examples of Sunni scholars who believe in the topic.
Here are some famous Sunni Scholars, who believe that Jesus(as) died according to the Quran.
Scholar No.1.
Mohammed Habib Shakir
Mohammed Habib Shakir has been stated by many internet sources as "a well-known translator of the Qur'an into English." He has been associated with the translator M. H. Shakir of the translation published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an.

Translation of Quran 5:117
"I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with That serve Allah, my Lord, and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them and Thou art Witness of all things."

https://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=3

Another Sunni Scholar, says Jesus(as) had died physically.
Scholars No.2.
Javed Ghamandi sb. from Pakistan.
Scholar No.3.
Muhamad Sheikh sb. from Canada.
Mohammad Shaikh:
An author who has penned down numerous influential books, Mohammad Shaikh is an exceptional Muslim scholar, preacher, and the founder of the International Islamic Propagation Center (IIPC), which is a viral propagation Institute of Canada. A charismatic personality, an influencer, and a motivational speaker, Mohammad Shaikh has made his name as an expert researcher of the Quran.
Scholar No.4
Allama Mahmood Shatoot, world-famous, Director of Al-Azhar University Egypt.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Quran verse 3:145
وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ اِلَّا رَسُوۡلٌ ۚ قَدۡ خَلَتۡ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِ الرُّسُلُ ؕ اَفَا۠ئِنۡ مَّاتَ اَوۡ قُتِلَ انۡقَلَبۡتُمۡ عَلٰۤی اَعۡقَابِکُمۡ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّنۡقَلِبۡ عَلٰی عَقِبَیۡہِ فَلَنۡ یَّضُرَّ اللّٰہَ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَسَیَجۡزِی اللّٰہُ الشّٰکِرِیۡنَ ﴿۱۴۵﴾

Short Commentary
And [a]Muhammad is but a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all.[494] And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Everybody is humbly requested to please stay on the topic of this thread.

 

[yitzak tover]

Now, before I send the 2nd verse of the Quran about my topic. I want some examples of Sunni scholars who believe in the topic.
Here are some famous Sunni Scholars, who believe that Jesus(as) died according to the Quran.
Scholar No.1.
Mohammed Habib Shakir
Mohammed Habib Shakir has been stated by many internet sources as "a well-known translator of the Qur'an into English." He has been associated with the translator M. H. Shakir of the translation published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an.

Translation of Quran 5:117
"I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with That serve Allah, my Lord, and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them and Thou art Witness of all things."

https://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=3

Another Sunni Scholar, says Jesus(as) had died physically.
Scholars No.2.
Javed Ghamandi sb. from Pakistan.
Scholar No.3.
Muhamad Sheikh sb. from Canada.
Mohammad Shaikh:
An author who has penned down numerous influential books, Mohammad Shaikh is an exceptional Muslim scholar, preacher, and the founder of the International Islamic Propagation Center (IIPC), which is a viral propagation Institute of Canada. A charismatic personality, an influencer, and a motivational speaker, Mohammad Shaikh has made his name as an expert researcher of the Quran.
Scholar No.4
Allama Mahmood Shatoot, world-famous, Director of Al-Azhar University Egypt.

thats the great thing about islam no hierarchy. everyone entitled to their opinion

 

[RJM]

bart erman

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus died on the cross. So it's the same ole – take the parts you like, and reject the parts you don't …

none of the gospels were even written by any of the 4 apostles and all were written in greek that no apostle spoke and John 3 16 the backbone of christianity was a much later addition '

This is complex and off-topic here. Would you like to start a thread about it? However, in general Ehrman accepts much of the early authenticity of the gospels, regardless the names of the authors.

The 'pen-names' don't matter: it's believed the gospel of Mark was dictated by the apostle Peter during his imprisonment, etc. It's a large and complex discussion and there are several threads about it on these forums, going back 20 years, so it's nothing new.

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
I apologise for taking your thread off-topic, in responding to comments addressed to me. I will not respond to any more off-topic comments

 

[muhammad_isa]

My knowledge of physics is shoddy at best, so take this with a grain of salt.

As far as I understand, physical laws are observations of patterns in nature that have never been contradicted. If an exception to a physical law were to be found, it would no longer be a law.

So miracles do seem to be illogical, for two reasons:

1.) Deductively, if my understanding of physical laws is accurate, then physical laws cannot be defied. If they are defied, then they are no longer physical laws.
2.) Inductively, given that physical laws have never been contradicted, we would expect them to continue to not be contradicted.

It is not "illogical" for a physical law to be violated .. it is an exception that is caused by the will of G-d.

It is entirely different from making illogical statements such as Jesus is a man, but Jesus is also G-d .. and G-d created man.
Can you not see the difference?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus died on the cross. So it's the same ole – take the parts you like, and reject the parts you don't …

Hmmph..
Bart Ehrman denies Jesus appeared to the disciples after the "apparent" crucifixion.
.. so he's not your "witness" brother.

 

[RJM]

Hmmph..
Bart Ehrman denies Jesus appeared to the disciples after the "apparent" crucifixion.
.. so he's not your "witness" brother.

Nor is he yours. That's the point, brother ...

 

[yitzak tover]

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus died on the cross. So it's the same ole – take the parts you like, and reject the parts you don't …
This is complex and off-topic here. Would you like to start a thread about it? However, in general Ehrman accepts much of the early authenticity of the gospels, regardless the names of the authors.

The 'pen-names' don't matter: it's believed the gospel of Mark was dictated by the apostle Peter during his imprisonment, etc. It's a large and complex discussion and there are several threads about it on these forums, going back 20 years, so it's nothing new.

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
I apologise for taking your thread off-topic, in responding to comments addressed to me. I will not respond to any more off-topic comments

nothing complex about this topic ....bart erman who sought to become a pastor left the church after concluding most of the christian doctrines were man made.... foreign to Jesus who taught monotheism

 

[muhammad_isa]

nothing complex about this topic ....bart erman who sought to become a pastor left the church after concluding most of the christian doctrines were man made.... foreign to Jesus who taught monotheism

Well said.

 

[RJM]

nothing complex about this topic ....bart erman who sought to become a pastor left the church after concluding most of the christian doctrines were man made.... foreign to Jesus who taught monotheism

Well said.

No, he left religion, became an atheist, because he could not accept a good God who allowed such suffering.

Please start a new thread if you want to discuss this as @Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi has already politely asked everyone to stay on topic