30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

[badger]

I do think that the New Testament does not paint a very flattering portrayal of Jesus's teaching abilities.

He uses a lot of vague and ambiguous metaphors that seem to have caused confusion and sectarianism almost immediately after his death by Paul's account. He also had a habit of calling other people foolish when he failed to explain a concept to them well.

Most of what he says are just assertions. There's not really a lot of reasoning behind his claims outside of appeals to his own authority. Also not a sign of a good teacher.

Absolutely...... this ^^^^^

 

[badger]

Who was absent for most of Pilate's reign. But have you evidence of his sympathies?

Yes........ evidence of Pilate's sympathies is recorded in the gospels.
Do you want me to show you where these are?

 

[badger]

I'd prefer if the creed wasn't politicised at all, and stuck to what Jesus actually said.

This^^^^^

 

[badger]

G-d knows what exactly happened..
It is interesting to note that Pilate is mentioned by name in the Roman creed.
It's "not allowed" to believe anything else.

This^^^^
I often wonder about the records that were destroyed, of course some survived by accident, such as Origen's copying of Celcus's opinions.

Sometimes people ask, 'So how did the Church survive for two millenia?' But it seems to me as if the priesthood was not the pleasant benevolent institution that some might perceive these days. To ask questions was very dangerous. To be able to read a bible and develop opinions from the gospels could mean a terrifying death.

Even today the Priesthood(s) in the UK can show a very aggressive and tough face. My late wife was a Bahai, I attended a Christian service in Guildford with her one day in 1972 and we received a delightful welcome from the priest who insisted on coming to see us at our home, so we invited him. I think that he was a Baptist minister but it was a long time ago. On his arrival at our home he saw the Bahai emblem on a wall........Oh my goodness! He turned in to a snarling seething person, accusing us of deceiving him and luring him in to an evil place. You don't have to guess about what happened to people like us a few hundred years ago.

 

[RJM]

And with less effort? And a more effective way to kill? Is that what you are suggesting?
So that's why they didn't do that to the other convicts.....
How's this working for you?

Because he was already dead, as the gospel of John makes clear:

"Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away."
John 19:31-38 read full chapter

So Jesus was dead. The same person who reports the spear thrust also reports in the next line that he was an eye-witness, which you deny. It is also reported that Joseph went to ask for the body of Jesus 'later' which means he had to visit Pilate and then return to Golgotha to take Jesus down.

He wasn't waiting there to take Jesus down immediately after the spear thrust to the lung. That was a life-threatening wound unless treated by emergency surgery to repair the lung. If it was so urgent to clear the lung of fluid that it could not wait to be performed medically a bit later, that does away with the 'short crucifixion' hypothesis, and a 'swooned man' on a cross would soon die of asphyxiation, even if his legs were not broken.

I'm not saying a person has to accept any of it, but within those seven short verses of the passage you are selectively interpreting a couple to suit your theory, and dismissing those that do not.

 

[RJM]

Unseen World....? I think that puts your use of the word 'spiritual' in its correct place.

Do you mean that because you personally do not believe in an unseen spiritual dimension, it means Jesus could not have been talking about one?

I don't know any.........

Have you ever visited a monastery? Anyway -- because many Christians may not be perfect examples of Christ, means Jesus's spiritual teaching isn't valid? Have you met many perfect Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims recently?

Are you suggesting that causing mayhem in Anna's Bazaar, criminal damage and violence...by Jesus and his followers, followed by picketing the Temple Courts........ 2 days running, was a storm in a teacup?

I'm saying the gospels report he whipped a couple of moneylenders and overturned a table or two does not mean he went in there causing the sort of mayhem that was enough to be mentioned at his trial before Pilate. We don't know how serious the disturbance was: that's the point. It could have been exaggerated, we don't know. It wasn't mentioned at the trial, where Pilate did not consider Jesus a threat to public order.

I was trying to discover more about the aqueducts around Jerusalem. I asked a question about these. I asked another member who might know about them.

Here is what you said:

Ah ha! Aqueducts! Did the Romans ever build aqueducts!
Can you tell me more about Pilate's aqueducts? I should learn more about these.
Recent research of aqueduct construction by Romans shows that their labour was mostly by convicts and slaves......

Sorry if I got you wrong

 

[badger]

Do you mean that because you personally do not believe in an unseen spiritual dimension, it means Jesus could not have been talking about one?

I mean what I wrote.

Have you ever visited a monastery? Anyway -- because many Christians may not be perfect examples of Christ, means Jesus's spiritual teaching isn't valid?

Did Jesus advocate monasteries?
What 'spiritual teaching' ...? Can you show me? Jesus was campaigning for a return of the laws, including the poor laws.
Again, I don't think that Jesus was an effective teacher...many people couldn't grasp what he was saying.

Have you met many perfect Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims recently?

Redirection?

I'm saying the gospels report he whipped a couple of moneylenders and overturned a table or two does not mean he went in there causing the sort of mayhem that was enough to be mentioned at his trial before Pilate. We don't know how serious the disturbance was: that's the point. It could have been exaggerated, we don't know. It wasn't mentioned at the trial, where Pilate did not consider Jesus a threat to public order.

It's there in the gospel of Mark. Written down. How many people were needed to set up sbpicket line across the Temple Courts?

Here is what you said:
Sorry if I got you wrong

Oh yes ....you got me wrong. I'm most interested in Roman aqueducts and @Thomas provided useful information.

 

[RJM]

I mean what I wrote.

Unseen World....? I think that puts your use of the word 'spiritual' in its correct place.

What do you mean? It's unclear.

Did Jesus advocate monasteries?

I was responding to your claim that you have never met a non-materialistic Christian

Redirection?

Ditto

What 'spiritual teaching' ...? Can you show me?

Are you joking?
John 6: 32-65 read full chapter

Jesus was campaigning for a return of the laws, including the poor laws.
Again, I don't think that Jesus was an effective teacher...many people couldn't grasp what he was saying.

This is your opinion. There are very many opinions about Jesus.

It's there in the gospel of Mark. Written down. How many people were needed to set up sbpicket line across the Temple Courts?

I don't know, and you don't know how big the disturbance actually was. It could be exaggerated. Pilate did not regard Jesus as a threat to public order. It wasn't important enough to come up during the trial. You could be right, but you just cannot know

Anyway, @badger
We disagree
It just goes circular after a while, imo ...

 

[Thomas]

Exactly, the creed was designed to establish certain beliefs about Jesus.

Everybody has their creeds. They signify what is believed.

The above speaks for itself.

Yes, we know that ... but that doesn't prove anything either way, does it?

The Romans did not want to promote any religion close to Judaism.

I think the use of the word 'Romans' here is possibly a misnomer, anachronism, or simply pejorative ... in the era under discussion, the Church was more Greek ...

 

[Thomas]

On the occasions that there was no Legate in adjacent Syria, then Pilate would have received supervision either direct from Rome or from a 2ic, I'm guessing.

Got any evidence? He might well have been left to his own devices?

I don't think that the Prefect controlled the position of Chief Priest. He wasn't allowed in the Temple, either.

Er ... that's not quite correct ...
The high priest was drawn from the Sadducean aristocracy, and received their appointment from Rome since the time of Herod the Great. Rome looked to high priests to keep the Jewish populace in line.

Scholars assume from his long tenure as high priest (18-36AD) that he must have worked well with Roman authorities, and remained in office throughout Pilate's tenure.

Re the 'cleaning of the temple' there is a source (Ehrman?) who suggests the thing was more of prophetic significance than a big deal.

The Temple site was huge. One man overturning some tables in the outer court (where the animals and money-changers were) could have happened without the majority realising anything was going on. The guard were not called out, no arrests were made, there's a possibility Jesus had a lot of popular support and it was decided to let it blow over rather than risk inflaming the situation ... I'll try and find the references.

 

[Thomas]

Do you think that this seizure of Temple funds happened during the time of Jesus or afterwards?

Pilate used monies to build an aqueduct to provide water to his residence – it triggered riots.

The report suggests that these troubles happened after the time of Jesus, maybe involving the actions that caused Pilate's recall?

No, Pilate's recall was for the brutal suppression of a revolt by Samaritans on Mount Gerzim, a place as sacred to them as Jerusalem to the orthodox.

It certainly shows that Pilate was not at all empathic about the Great Temple, or it's priesthood. This tends to show just how strained relations were between Pilate and Temple. Without doubt, he enjoyed any upsets that were caused to Temple of Priesthood.

As long as they kept the peace, I doubt he gave a flying ****, as we say ...

 

[Thomas]

Yes........ evidence of Pilate's sympathies is recorded in the gospels.
Do you want me to show you where these are?

Please.

 

[Thomas]

Did Jesus advocate monasteries?

I'm pretty sure he would have done, cf Matthew 19:12. John the Baptist was a forerunner in many respects, and the Desert Fathers would later evolve into monastic communities.

What 'spiritual teaching' ...? Can you show me?

Matthew 13:11, 13:43 ... many places ... John's Gospel?

Jesus was campaigning for a return of the laws...

But not legalism ... how do you see this campaign?

 

[RJM]

What were Pontius Pilate's real Motives? The man who killed Jesus

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20171/

 

[badger]

Got any evidence? He might well have been left to his own devices?

Yes....... Let me show you what you wrote about this, that the Prefect was under supervision and was not left to his own devices, thus:-

The high priest was drawn from the Sadducean aristocracy, and received their appointment from Rome since the time of Herod the Great. Rome looked to high priests to keep the Jewish populace in line.

There it is....... Rome.

Scholars assume from his long tenure as high priest (18-36AD) that he must have worked well with Roman authorities, and remained in office throughout Pilate's tenure.

Scholars .......... When I'm told what scholars have written, said, filmed assumed or anything else, then I can only hope that they might come to this place and speak for themselves. It's always best to copy exactly what they have written and to identify them.

Re the 'cleaning of the temple' there is a source (Ehrman?) who suggests the thing was more of prophetic significance than a big deal.

I know...... that's what the authors of G-John needed to place down as well, there was a lot about Jesus that the authors of John needed to play down.

The Temple site was huge. One man overturning some tables in the outer court (where the animals and money-changers were) could have happened without the majority realising anything was going on. The guard were not called out, no arrests were made, there's a possibility Jesus had a lot of popular support and it was decided to let it blow over rather than risk inflaming the situation ... I'll try and find the references.

So you think it was just a scuffle, or something like that?

Yes, the Great Temple was vast....massive. Any of the three Great Feasts could attract about 400 - 500 thousand worshippers. I can show this to be fact if you need me to.
Here is a source that shows a different picture:-

Mark {11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. {11:18} And the scribes and chief priests heard [it,] and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

 

[badger]

Please.

As I said, evidence of Pilate's sympathies were recorded in the gospels. I snatched these entries from just two gospels:-

Matthew {27:18} For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. {27:19} When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Mark {15:13} And they cried out again, Crucify him. {15:14} Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done?

Matthew {27:13} Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? {27:14} And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

Matthew {27:23} And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. {27:24} When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person:

 

[badger]

I'm pretty sure he would have done, cf Matthew 19:12. John the Baptist was a forerunner in many respects, and the Desert Fathers would later evolve into monastic communities.

John was living as a hunter gatherer, out in the wastes. He survived upon the sends of the seasons and the surges of the migrations, that is true, but he was a man among people, he didn't shut himself away but came to the West Bank of the Jordan where all Northern people had to pass by in order to get South (Samaria was dangerous). When I think of the Immerser I think of a self-subsisting person, at one with Nature and all around, but when I think of Monasteries I think of monks driving mercedes cars, wealth and plenty. I accept that some welcome hardships but Jesus never did advocate people to shut themselves up. In my opinion...

Matthew 13:11, 13:43 ... many places

Matthew {13:11} He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew {13:43} Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

No...... not spiritual but tempral, absolutely Temporal. The kingdom of heaven was congregation of the Israelite people, following the Laws of Moses in to success....Heaven on Earth.... I think.

See how the Israelite's God guided them towards the laws..... for success, security, strength, cohesion and togetherness.....:-

LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and
therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

... John's Gospel?

I like the Gospel of John..... there are so many pieces of information not to be found elsewhere, but I don't think that the authors of G-John were witnesses, not there, nor did they know about the wonderful 'things' that happened to the disciple John, nor much about him. Nor did they know where to place all the reports that they held in to an accurate timeline, so they jumbled things up, somewhat. Nor did they recognise many of the healings and castings of Jesus....maybe too lowly for their Christ?
I believe that they spun spiritualism in to the story of Jesus who I think was absolutely devoted to a return of the laws and an end to Temple corruption.

But not legalism ... how do you see this campaign?

I see it the way that Jesus said it.........
Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {5:20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness]
of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[badger]

What were Pontius Pilate's real Motives? The man who killed Jesus

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20171/

But I don't think that he did.....kill Jesus!
I've written about this many times now.

 

[RJM]

when I think of Monasteries I think of monks driving mercedes cars, wealth and plenty.

Then you should actually visit one, imo, because whatever causes you to think that is diametrically wrong and false.

But I don't think that he did.....kill Jesus!
I've written about this many times now.

Why don't you just watch the video and then talk about it? It's very informative about Pilate

 

[RJM]

I see it the way that Jesus said it.........
Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19}

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {5:20}

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

How do you explain that he was constantly being criticized by the religious authorities for not following the letter of the law -- for breaking the sabbath, eating with tax collectors, and so on? Did Jesus not mean that he was there to renew the spirit of the eternal divine law?

... I believe that they spun spiritualism in to the story of Jesus who I think was absolutely devoted to a return of the laws and an end to Temple corruption.

And which as always is achieved by selectively interpreting whatever bits that fit the thesis, and dismissing anything that do not?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
John 18:36-37

Matthew {13:11} He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew {13:43} Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

No...... not spiritual but temporal, absolutely Temporal. The kingdom of heaven was congregation of the Israelite people, following the Laws of Moses in to success....Heaven on Earth.... I think.

Parable of Lazarus and the rich man

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luke 16:19-31) Read full chapter