Is anybody came from heavens to this world in the human history? No

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically. And nobody saw them.

 

[RJM]

There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically. And nobody saw them.

There are some religious books that say Christ died on the cross and, after his descent into sheol was resurrected in a spiritual body, and after appearing to several of his followers, ascended into heaven.

No-one is saying anyone has to believe it happened that way -- but no-one can deny there are 'some religious books' that mention the fact? And libraries of books written about it since then?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..after his descent into sheol was resurrected in a spiritual body..

What's a "spiritual body" ?

It seems like a contradiction in terms, to me.
Physical bodies are physical by definition. Something spiritual is not physical, hence it is an illusion .. magic..
. or could I suggest .. a lie?

 

[RJM]

What's a "spiritual body" ?

The glorified body of the risen Christ would be an example?

Physical bodies are physical by definition. Something spiritual is not physical,

You know this how? By consulting a dictionary?

It seems like a contradiction in terms, to me.
it is an illusion .. magic.. . or could I suggest .. a lie?

Just because you do not understand something -- or more likely deliberately choose to misunderstand it -- does not mean it is a lie. It has recently been discussed here, and also in the past on other threads, as you well know. As usual, the fact that you do not like the answer you get, does not entitle you to keep repeating the same robotic mantra, imo

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20048/page-7

Regarding the glorified resurrected Christ, Taoist and Kundalini immortality yoga is all about generating a new immortal bodhisattva body that can be manifested or multiplied, and then unmanifested again, by the yogi. It's very ancient. It's not a new concept, that Christ could appear in his 'spiritual' body. Manifesting his wounds to convince Thomas that it was indeed him, or eating a bit of fish to convince the apostles that he was real was done to demonstrate his control over his natural physical form -- it was a demonstration.

Parahansa Yogananda, writes about Babaji, the immortal yogi, manifesting a physical body that is always young. The concept is nothing new, imo

The concept of the immortal spiritual bodhisattva body is the root of alchemy, the transformation of the natural lead into spiritual gold. The difference would be that Christ was always spiritual; Christ did not need to attain that state. As Christ in/as Jesus was a demonstration of God as Man -- Emmanuel God With Us -- Christ's appearance after the resurrection was a demonstration of his power over death, and of the victory of eternal Spirit, imo

The transmuted and immortal bodhisattva body is a well known concept in eastern faiths.

I mean, we have a talking dog and clay birds flying away, and Jesus physical body waiting in heaven to return -- but that's not 'an illusion ... magic' -- because they are the miracles you like to accept. So we have the acceptable logical miracles allowed by the Quran, and then there are all the other unacceptable illogical miracles, lol?

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Here are some Ancient personalities (but nobody came down till now from heavens physically after going up to the heavens, according to the Holy beliefs)
List of some other Ancient Christ-Figures whose characteristics were extraordinarily similar to that of Jesus in Christianity; all of whom were predating him by centuries

Sl. no. 1
Name: Horus in Egypt
Time period: More than 4500 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, Isis, on 25 December, in a cave or animal – shed, son of God, sacrificed life at Easter time upon the cross, for the atonement of Sinners, raised on the 3rd day from dead, offers his followers the chance to be b orn again through the rite of Baptism. He turned water into wine at a marriage ceremony; rides triumphantly into a town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him. He descended to hell, on the 3rd day he was resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven in glory. Followers await his return as the judge during the last days. His death and resurrection were celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize his body and blood.

Sl. no. 2
Name: Zoroaster
Time period: 1500-1200 years BCE
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin, popular in ancient Persia.

Sl. no. 3
Name: Krishna in India
Time period: Around 1200 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Hindu deity, reincarnated god. Born of virgin mother Devaki. During infancy, his life was threatened by a tyrant king, like infant Jesus’ life was threatened by Herod, king of Judaea. Both of them fled to their safety, during their infancy.

Sl. no. 4
Name: Indra
Time period: 700 BCE
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin, in Tibet.

Sl. no. 5
Name: Dionysus in Greece
Time period: 7th century B.C.E
Other particulars:
Son of a virgin mother, Semele, son of God, born on 25th December, in a cave/animal shed, sacrificed life on the cross for the atonement of sinners, resurrected on the 3rd day from the dead. Offered his followers the chance to be born again through the rite of baptism. He turned water into wine in a marriage ceremony.

Other characteristics of this Greek Christ Dionysus were exactly the same as that of Egyptian Christ Horus. Dionysus had so many other names too, such as Icchos, Bassareus, Bromis, Euios, Sabazius, Zagres, Yhyoneus, Bacchus, Orpheus, etc. Greek sage Pythagoras traveled to Egypt in 673 BCE, stayed there for 22 years, learned mathematics and the mystery religion of Horus-Osiris from temple monks there. He introduced the ‘Egyptian mathematics’ and ‘mystery religion of Horus’ to his fellow Greeks. Later his followers transformed the Egyptian Christ Horus into Greek indigenous deity Dionysus as their own god-man/Christ.

Sl. no. 6
Name: Gautama Buddha
Time period: 600 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother Maya – in an asexual manner, in Nepal.

Sl. no. 7
Name: Adonis
Time period:
Other particulars:
Assyrian-Babylonian god-man; born of virgin mother Ishtar.

Sl. no. 8
Name: Mithras
Time period: Around 600 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, on 25 December, son of God, died upon tree/cross for atonement of sinners, resurrected on the 3 rd day from the dead, ascended to heaven, will revisit the world.

Sl. no. 9
Name: Attis
Time period: 200 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, Nama; in Phrygia, in central Asia Minor, nowadays Turkey.

Sl. no. 10
Name: Quirinus
Time period:
Other particulars:
Another Pagan Roman god, a savior like Adonis or Dionysus, was born of a virgin mother.

Book ref: THE JESUS MYSTERIES, Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy, Harper Collins Publishers, London, UK, 2000, pp. 4-6.
( If I am wrong please correct me. Thanks)

 

[powessy]

There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically. And nobody saw them.

Hello Ijaz

I am unsure as to your definition of heaven but to come back might be a completely different story all together.

After death, the other side or as I call it, nothing here. I do believe that if you have enough time and can figure yourself out after this life time it is possible to become something here again.

As for the spiritual body, we are made from something here, but after death you have to be remade from something there. This requires you to figure yourself out and find time.

Best image I can find of this is a stone carving made by the, I believe Annunaki.



In this image there are only two people not four. The two with wings are also the two that are standing in front of themselves. The two angels are made of something there and their doubles are made from something here, or will become something here. The pine cone looking things are how they teach themselves inside themselves. I believe that the gate in the center is how they came across a doorway. I would also say that this doorway would not be to far from where this carving is located.

I put very little stock in bible thoughts or any religion for that matter. The answers are out there but not in religion it is to point you in the wrong direction. As with all religions and belief systems you can find a few truths but not enough to figure anything out.

Just an example of something here and nothing here.

powessy

 

[RJM]

Here are some Ancient personalities (but nobody came down till now from heavens physically after going up to the heavens, according to the Holy beliefs)
List of some other Ancient Christ-Figures whose characteristics were extraordinarily similar to that of Jesus in Christianity; all of whom were predating him by centuries

Sl. no. 1
Name: Horus in Egypt
Time period: More than 4500 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, Isis, on 25 December, in a cave or animal – shed, son of God, sacrificed life at Easter time upon the cross, for the atonement of Sinners, raised on the 3rd day from dead, offers his followers the chance to be b orn again through the rite of Baptism. He turned water into wine at a marriage ceremony; rides triumphantly into a town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him. He descended to hell, on the 3rd day he was resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven in glory. Followers await his return as the judge during the last days. His death and resurrection were celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize his body and blood.

Sl. no. 2
Name: Zoroaster
Time period: 1500-1200 years BCE
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin, popular in ancient Persia.

Sl. no. 3
Name: Krishna in India
Time period: Around 1200 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Hindu deity, reincarnated god. Born of virgin mother Devaki. During infancy, his life was threatened by a tyrant king, like infant Jesus’ life was threatened by Herod, king of Judaea. Both of them fled to their safety, during their infancy.

Sl. no. 4
Name: Indra
Time period: 700 BCE
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin, in Tibet.

Sl. no. 5
Name: Dionysus in Greece
Time period: 7th century B.C.E
Other particulars:
Son of a virgin mother, Semele, son of God, born on 25th December, in a cave/animal shed, sacrificed life on the cross for the atonement of sinners, resurrected on the 3rd day from the dead. Offered his followers the chance to be born again through the rite of baptism. He turned water into wine in a marriage ceremony.

Other characteristics of this Greek Christ Dionysus were exactly the same as that of Egyptian Christ Horus. Dionysus had so many other names too, such as Icchos, Bassareus, Bromis, Euios, Sabazius, Zagres, Yhyoneus, Bacchus, Orpheus, etc. Greek sage Pythagoras traveled to Egypt in 673 BCE, stayed there for 22 years, learned mathematics and the mystery religion of Horus-Osiris from temple monks there. He introduced the ‘Egyptian mathematics’ and ‘mystery religion of Horus’ to his fellow Greeks. Later his followers transformed the Egyptian Christ Horus into Greek indigenous deity Dionysus as their own god-man/Christ.

Sl. no. 6
Name: Gautama Buddha
Time period: 600 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother Maya – in an asexual manner, in Nepal.

Sl. no. 7
Name: Adonis
Time period:
Other particulars:
Assyrian-Babylonian god-man; born of virgin mother Ishtar.

Sl. no. 8
Name: Mithras
Time period: Around 600 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, on 25 December, son of God, died upon tree/cross for atonement of sinners, resurrected on the 3 rd day from the dead, ascended to heaven, will revisit the world.

Sl. no. 9
Name: Attis
Time period: 200 years B.C.E.
Other particulars:
Born of a virgin mother, Nama; in Phrygia, in central Asia Minor, nowadays Turkey.

Sl. no. 10
Name: Quirinus
Time period:
Other particulars:
Another Pagan Roman god, a savior like Adonis or Dionysus, was born of a virgin mother.

Book ref: THE JESUS MYSTERIES, Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy, Harper Collins Publishers, London, UK, 2000, pp. 4-6.

( If I am wrong please correct me. Thanks)

But the Quran also accepts a sinless miracle working Jesus of virgin birth, who ascended bodily to heaven. I realise the Ahmadiyya do not accept the ascension. But what is the point of this post, except to try to show the Quran Jesus is simply a mythical being?

Here are some Ancient personalities (but nobody came down till now from heavens physically after going up to the heavens, according to the Holy beliefs)

That would just make the Christ unique. Again, what is the point of this post?

 

[Cino]

There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically. And nobody saw them.

Don't the Gospels contain an account of the prophet Elijah's (brief) return to Earth, witnessed by several of Jesus' disciples, on Mt. Horeb? @badger mentioned the scene recently in a thread, which is why it came to mind.

The classics also have accounts of Katabasis, of someone entering the realm of the dead, and returning. Odysseus, Orpheus, and so on. Not exactly the heavens, but the reversal of direction for the realm where the winged souls go after death did not occur until Plato, I think.

 

[badger]

Don't the Gospels contain an account of the prophet Elijah's (brief) return to Earth, witnessed by several of Jesus' disciples, on Mt. Horeb? @badger mentioned the scene recently in a thread, which is why it came to mind.

The classics also have accounts of Katabasis, of someone entering the realm of the dead, and returning. Odysseus, Orpheus, and so on. Not exactly the heavens, but the reversal of direction for the realm where the winged souls go after death did not occur until Plato, I think.

You mentioned Elijah standing by Jesus in the Transfiguration......... I also love the story of his leaving Earth in that chariot of fire. Elijah got about....

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Sorry, I requested that which physical body came from heavens till now since this earth made? How saw? What he did? Is it referred to any historical book? When he again died in this world.
I believe No physical body came down from heaven till now.
Thank

 

[Cino]

Sorry, I requested that which physical body came from heavens till now since this earth made? How saw? What he did? Is it referred to any historical book? When he again died in this world.
I believe No physical body came down from heaven till now.
Thank

Like I said. In Book 9 of the Odyssey, Odysseus is reported to have visited the realm of the dead, and returned. After his return, he continued his voyage home with his crew and ship, arrived at his Island of Ithaka, was seen by his son and wife and a host of rivals, took back his position, and lived mostly happily ever after, until his peaceful death at sea.

The Odyssey and the Iliad, its sister work, were part of the corpus of scripture in the Classical Greek and Roman world, comparable in significance to today's holy books. They contain some historically accurate information, as the excavations of Bronze Age sites around the Aegaean Sea have shown, most famously Troy.

If this doesn't meet your criteria, please go into detail.

Since you are making a statement out of such things, I'll add that I don't believe in the literal account of Odysseus' round trip to the River of the Dead separating this world from the next. To me, it contains fascinating details about the culture of thr time, and a few timeless psychological truths.

 

[badger]

Sorry, I requested that which physical body came from heavens till now since this earth made? How saw? What he did? Is it referred to any historical book? When he again died in this world.
I believe No physical body came down from heaven till now.
Thank

Lots of folks who follow various sciences might disagree with you, Ijaz.
Erik von Daniken certainly disagrees with you!

Physical bodies have been coming from the heavens, during and after the formation of this planet, it's how our water arrived, or so Brian Cox tells us.

And yes, Elijah's going up in to the heavens is recorded in a history book. The bible is (mostly) a history book.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

So, as Odyssey is a fiction story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey

Elijah did not come as physically in the physical body. Some people are still waiting for him.

Please let me know any other physical evidence of coming down the physical body to this earth.

 

[badger]

So, as Odyssey is a fiction story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey

Ah....... I read parts of that when at school, about 6 decades ago, our headmaster was crazy about the ancient classics.
Of course some of the Odyssey might be based upon truths...who knows.... you?

Elijah did not come as physically in the physical body. Some people are still waiting for him.

I wouldn't know about that but Elijah was a very real prophet, as you know.
Three disciples were convinced that Jesus stood beside him on that mountain..... Horeb, maybe?

Please let me know any other physical evidence of coming down the physical body to this earth.

Yep. Easy............
So you will accept any account of a person, a physical body coming down to this earth from outside this planet?
If I give you just two would that be enough?
Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin would fit that description, or do you believe that was all a fib as well?

 

[Cino]

So, as Odyssey is a fiction story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey

That's what you and I both think. It was a holy book of scripture to a lot of people, and it was studied as intensively as any other book of sacred writing. Even though I'm atheist, I don't dismiss other peoples scripture as a "fiction story", at least not on an interfaith board. You're a believer, I assume, with a holy book at stakes? Guess what we don't say about your scripture around here?

Elijah did not come as physically in the physical body. Some people are still waiting for him.

Yes, there are different religions which disagree on matters such as these. Yes, I've been invited to seders where there was a cup set aside for Elijah in case he showed up. And I've been in churches where the people believe that Peter offered to build a hut for Elija, because he was physically there.

Please let me know any other physical evidence of coming down the physical body to this earth.

Maybe spell out your criteria more clearly? Otherwise you can come up with a new reason why you don't like a given example each time.

 

[badger]

What's a "spiritual body" ?

It seems like a contradiction in terms, to me.
Physical bodies are physical by definition. Something spiritual is not physical, hence it is an illusion .. magic..
. or could I suggest .. a lie?

I agree with you about the above, for what that's worth to you.
So many people waffle on about things 'spiritual', it's almost a 'click' word used in attempts to convey a person's deeper self, religious side etc.
Whilst I do trust some healers and mediums I don't trust this word from materialistic folks wrapped in mammon.

 

[badger]

That's what you and I both think. It was a holy book of scripture to a lot of people, and it was studied as intensively as any other book of sacred writing. Even though I'm atheist, I don't dismiss other peoples scripture as a "fiction story", at least not on an interfaith board. You're a believer, I assume, with a holy book at stakes? Guess what we don't say about your scripture around here?

Exactly........ The acknowledgement of other people's beliefs, religions and faiths, so important if cultures and religions are to embrace one another. During the 70's a Rabbi (Lionel Blue) helped to found a world religions organisation (can't remember it's proper title) where representatives of any religion could come together to discuss in peaceful discussion and closer friendship. I asked him how there was any chance of success in this mission and he answered that if every delegate could just acknowledge every other religion present, and acknowledge its beliefs/creeds...then the whole undertaking would be an outstanding success.
Acknowledgement...... enough, I think

Yes, there are different religions which disagree on matters such as these. Yes, I've been invited to seders where there was a cup set aside for Elijah in case he showed up. And I've been in churches where the people believe that Peter offered to build a hut for Elija, because he was physically there.

I'm not an Aliens-were-here follower, but back in the 60's I was delighted to read von Daniken's 'Was God an Astronaut?' which quoted those brilliant verses describing Elijah's ascension upwards by chariot of fire. Many non religious folks, agnostics, atheists and convenience followers were beginning to take interest in bible verses as possible truths, simply because they were interested in the possibility that aliens had visited earth from other star systems.

 

[Cino]

I'm not an Aliens-were-here follower, but back in the 60's I was delighted to read von Daniken's 'Was God an Astronaut?' which quoted those brilliant verses describing Elijah's ascension upwards by chariot of fire. Many non religious folks, agnostics, atheists and convenience followers were beginning to take interest in bible verses as possible truths, simply because they were interested in the possibility that aliens had visited earth from other star systems.

Yeah, a relative of mine was really into von Däniken. I read a couple of his books as a kid, about Atlantis and submerged ruins, I think.

At one point, in the early 2000, he had a theme park about his work, the "Mystery Park" in Interlaken, central Switzerland. We visited it with said relative, who was delighted to actually meet the man in person.

His enthusiasm and charisma was definitely a thing, but he was more into presenting "what if..." scenarios than going anywhere with them.

Anyway, hope this was interesting.

 

[badger]

Yeah, a relative of mine was really into von Däniken. I read a couple of his books as a kid, about Atlantis and submerged ruins, I think.

At one point, in the early 2000, he had a theme park about his work, the "Mystery Park" in Interlaken, central Switzerland. We visited it with said relative, who was delighted to actually meet the man in person.

His enthusiasm and charisma was definitely a thing, but he was more into presenting "what if..." scenarios than going anywhere with them.

Anyway, hope this was interesting.

So you met von Daniken as well as your relative did. Very interesting.
Do you live in Switzerland/Europe?

I think that the 'what if....' approach has to be the only one that can be considered at this time, but since we are a recently developed species within the last, say, 2 million years, and since this universe has been developing over the last 13 billion years then the question 'what if...?' can be mined, trawled and harvested endlessly. I don't watch the various 'Alien' documentaries and series but I wouldn't question the mentalities of those who follow these.

 

[Cino]

So you met von Daniken as well as your relative did. Very interesting.
Do you live in Switzerland/Europe?

I kept in the background. My relative definitely got something out of the meeting. They remarkef afterward how von Däniken was not as tall as they'd imagined him to be...

I live in Germany.

I think that the 'what if....' approach has to be the only one that can be considered at this time, but since we are a recently developed species within the last, say, 2 million years, and since this universe has been developing over the last 13 billion years then the question 'what if...?' can be mined, trawled and harvested endlessly. I don't watch the various 'Alien' documentaries and series but I wouldn't question the mentalities of those who follow these.

As someone who received scientific training, I find it a bit disappointing to stop at the what if stage. That is only the beginning of a journey of discovery! It seems like armchair philosophizing, when just outside the door, there is a whole world to discover and explore. Those underwater ruins, yeah, what if they were really the remains of larger prehistoric settlements? Can we find out more? Why just mention them and then move on? This is frustrating to someone like me, and ultimately dissatisfying.