Is anybody came from heavens to this world in the human history? No

[stranger]

As someone who received scientific training, I find it a bit disappointing to stop at the what if stage. That is only the beginning of a journey of discovery! It seems like armchair philosophizing, when just outside the door, there is a whole world to discover and explore. Those underwater ruins, yeah, what if they were really the remains of larger prehistoric settlements? Can we find out more? Why just mention them and then move on? This is frustrating to someone like me, and ultimately dissatisfying.

As it is for me, and I have no training at all beyond potty. It would seem that when we pursue the mysteries with intellect and concept alone, we run into the temptation of concretization, in which we can become so attached to what we think we know that we "write it in stone", so to speak, and any additional knowing just falls prey to confirmation bias. If I am not mistaken this is the trap that ancient alien theorists have fallen into.

This is why I prefer divine ignorance to other forms of learning. With ignorance, I am the tabula rasa, always the blank page ready for the creative word. And only love can write lasting words on these pages. With this, I stumble forward, never sure of where I am going but willing to move as needed.

Surely the Lover always wants to know more of the Beloved, and vice versa -- this is the dance of love in which all other forms of learning pale by comparison. And yet, love is patient, willing to grow but only as the words come. Some will say, "You only have a little love, don't you want more?" Yet the person who has had no love before will say, "What is a little love? I have this love, therefore I have everything I need."

 

[Thomas]

What's a "spiritual body" ?

I think we're all 'spiritual bodies' in that we have life/light within ... ?

 

[Thomas]

Book ref: THE JESUS MYSTERIES, Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy, Harper Collins Publishers, London, UK, 2000, pp. 4-6. ( If I am wrong please correct me. Thanks)

I'm afraid the Jesus Mysteries has been soundly rebuked as nonsense. Evidence here

 

[Thomas]

There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically...

Just to clarify here – after the crucifixion, the physical body of Christ was in the tomb, and nobody knows where it was until they knew it was no longer in the tomb on the third day. Then Mary saw Him in the Garden. It's unlikely a physical body was present in the descent into the underworld/the harrowing of hell, because the eschaton is not a physical place.

It is clear from other references that after the resurrection, Christ is not recognised until He chooses to be seen. Mary mistook him for a gardener, the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) didn't realise they were conversing with the Risen Christ until He chose to reveal Himself.

In short, He is in the world, but no longer bound by it.

So the Risen Body is a physical body, but not constrained as physical bodies are, and this is all profoundly illogical, of course, unless one accepts Christ to be who He is, in which case it's reasonable.

 

[Ahanu]

But the Quran also accepts a sinless miracle working Jesus of virgin birth, who ascended bodily to heaven.

Where does it say he ascended bodily into heaven in the Qur'an? Off topic, but interested in your take on that one.

 

[RJM]

Where does it say he ascended bodily into heaven in the Qur'an? Off topic, but interested in your take on that one.

Physically? What's the word? Ascended alive to heaven? Was taken up alive?

 

[RJM]

Is it in the Quran?

 

[RJM]

Where does it say he ascended bodily into heaven in the Qur'an? Off topic, but interested in your take on that one.

So we have two references:

˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and elevate your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes.
(3:55)

I never told them anything except what You ordered me to say: “Worship Allah—my Lord and your Lord!” And I was witness over them as long as I remained among them. But when You took me, You were the Witness over them—and You are a Witness over all things.
(5:117)

Are there more?

 

[Ahanu]

Is it in the Quran?

No.

˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and elevate your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes.
(3:55)

But the Arabic word for "raising up" (rafa'a) doesn't refer to the physical ascent of the body into heaven. Where is that idea in the Qur'an? Or is it more in the imagination of commentators? Instead, this word (rafa'a) is used in the sense of exaltation and honor: "Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees" (2.253).

 

[RJM]

@Ahanu
Thank you

 

[Ahanu]

@Ahanu
Thank you

For the idea of the ascension in the Qur'an, you might want to refer to mi'raj, not rafa'a.

 

[RJM]

For the idea of the ascension in the Qur'an, you might want to refer to mi'raj, not rafa'a.

Is Isa unique as the ascended prophet? Adam, Musa, Noah and others all died? Elijah?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But the Arabic word for "raising up" (rafa'a) doesn't refer to the physical ascent of the body into heaven..

Are you a student of classical Arabic?
As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of Arabs believe that it is a literal ascension .. Allah removed him from this world.

 

[Thomas]

Are you a student of classical Arabic?
As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of Arabs believe that it is a literal ascension .. Allah removed him from this world.

Two questions here, really.

And I am sure interrogate 'the vast majority of' in any tradition and they'll believe a populist and probably erroneous interpretation of their Scripture. That's not a criticism, that's just a fact of human nature.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And I am sure interrogate 'the vast majority of' in any tradition and they'll believe a populist and probably erroneous interpretation of their Scripture. That's not a criticism, that's just a fact of human nature.

Well, when I say "the majority", I refer to 85–90% of the world's Muslims ( including Arabs ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam

The OP is an Ahmadiyya, and he believes that Jesus died in Kashmir.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Do the resurrected body needs food, flesh, bones, and holes in his hands? Why did Jesus after his resurrection needs to hide from the public? If he was not the physical body, he would not need to hide from the public as well as from his enemies.

But, Jesus showed these to his disciples, which showed that he was in his physical body when he met his disciples.
And the physical body can not go to heaven. Heaven is not physical. Always, the physical body can move to the physical body.

 

[RJM]

Why did Jesus after his resurrection needs to hide from the public?

Who says he hid? He appeared to a lot of people.

But, Jesus showed these to his disciples, which showed that he was in his physical body when he met his disciples.

He appeared to his disciples to show them he was resurrected from the tomb. That's what the gospels say. The passages are very clear. There is no possibility of them being misunderstood

Have you read the gospels? A person can believe if he wants to that Jesus did not die on the cross and that he was not resurrected from the tomb -- but you cannot derive that information from the gospels, which all make it clear that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

 

[Leveller]

Why did Jesus after his resurrection needs to hide from the public?

I too would like to know where you got this idea from. I am not debating with you, just genuinely curious.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Why were the women who visited the tomb terrified if Jesus was dead (Mark 16:8)? What did they have to be terrified of if the Jews had succeeded in killing Jesus?

If Jesus could conquer death and rise from the dead, why did he fear seeing the Jews after the crucifixion? particularly as death had no more power over him? (Romans 6:9)

Why did Jesus disguise himself after the resurrection and appear only to the disciples? Surely, this was the great manifestation of his power and the fulfillment of the purpose of his creation. What was the purpose of keeping it all a secret now?

If Jesus was the risen Christ, why did he meet his disciples behind closed doors and not in the open as he used to? (John 20:19) (On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.)

How many times did Jesus ascend to Heaven? Luke (23:43) states that Jesus told one of those crucified with him that he would be in Heaven that day with him. Does that mean that Jesus went up to Heaven after his death, came back to earth, and then ascended to Heaven once more? According to John, there appears to be yet another Ascension. When Mary Magdalene asked to touch him, Jesus forbade her saying that he had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). Later Jesus appears to the disciples and actually invites Thomas to touch him, (John 20:27) which must mean that Jesus had ascended and returned. Thus, is it possible that there were three Ascensions?

The author of Mark asserts that Jesus was taken up to Heaven and sat on the right of God (Mark 16:19). This remark could only come from Jesus himself or an eyewitness account. Since it was not Jesus who reported it, does that mean that the eyewitness actually went to Heaven and saw Jesus sitting on the right side of God? If so, was that person also taken to Heaven and brought back to report the incident?

 

[RJM]

Why were the women who visited the tomb terrified if Jesus was dead (Mark 16:8)? What did they have to be terrified of if the Jews had succeeded in killing Jesus?

If Jesus could conquer death and rise from the dead, why did he fear seeing the Jews after the crucifixion? particularly as death had no more power over him? (Romans 6:9)

Why did Jesus disguise himself after the resurrection and appear only to the disciples? Surely, this was the great manifestation of his power and the fulfillment of the purpose of his creation. What was the purpose of keeping it all a secret now?

If Jesus was the risen Christ, why did he meet his disciples behind closed doors and not in the open as he used to? (John 20:19) (On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.)

How many times did Jesus ascend to Heaven? Luke (23:43) states that Jesus told one of those crucified with him that he would be in Heaven that day with him. Does that mean that Jesus went up to Heaven after his death, came back to earth, and then ascended to Heaven once more? According to John, there appears to be yet another Ascension. When Mary Magdalene asked to touch him, Jesus forbade her saying that he had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). Later Jesus appears to the disciples and actually invites Thomas to touch him, (John 20:27) which must mean that Jesus had ascended and returned. Thus, is it possible that there were three Ascensions?

The author of Mark asserts that Jesus was taken up to Heaven and sat on the right of God (Mark 16:19). This remark could only come from Jesus himself or an eyewitness account. Since it was not Jesus who reported it, does that mean that the eyewitness actually went to Heaven and saw Jesus sitting on the right side of God? If so, was that person also taken to Heaven and brought back to report the incident?

The gospels all say Jesus died on the cross.