A Catholic Reply to the Commentary on Verses of John by Abdu’l-Bahá

[Thomas]

After looking up Nasr's views of the Holy Spirit/Gabriel, I see you're right.

Phew!

It makes no sense to me. The mirror analogy implies that an object is manifested or is reflected without undergoing any alteration/change or physical incarnation.

I'd say in the language of Abrahamic theology there is a distinction between 'manifested' and 'reflected' – the former suggests immanence, whereas the later does not.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I know that's what you think. So do the adherents of every self-declared new Christ and messenger. It remains false equivalence, imo

Anyway Tony, I have asked to be excused from this thread ...

You are excused from the thread, but your comment is not, the comment is open to fair and just reply.

I reply for others who may want clarification of your statement, and a lot of my replies to you RJM, are not personally for you RJM, as I know your stance, the replies are addressing the comments or accusations made so others may consider the alternative views.

I see It is Biblical prophecy that we will be looking for such a Messenger, a Messenger that God has named (which is is logical and reasonable to assume will be named by a Messenger, who are chosen to speak for God)

Isaiah 62:2 "The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the Lord will designate"

Then we get to Revelation, the promisses to be fulfilled after Jesus the Christ.

Revelation 2:17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’.."

So the New Name will only be know unto those that receive it, but there is a promise about this New Name.

Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

What a bounty, it appears we do need to overcome our own perceptions and embrace a New Name, embrace a New Jerusalem (embrace a new "Abode of Peace" as that is what Jerusalem means).

A New Name Which the Mouth of the Lord has given us.

It was the Bab, a Messenger from God that Gave the Name Baha'u'llah in the Bayan.

Baha'u'llah a Messenger to come, took on the name Baha at a conference where all people present were given a New Name by the Bab.

It is logical and reasonable to see this is a clear fulfillment of those prophecies. That is as good as any prophecy gets, that has proved any past Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Ahanu]

If you Google 'angels' and 'Qumran', you'll realise just how wrong you are concerning this topic.

Well, this is going to be interesting then. Please share your source(s).

The key source I will be using here is Simone J. Joseph's book titled Jesus, the Essenes, and Christian Origins: New Light on Ancient Texts and Communities. It is recent scholarship. And, no, before anybody thinks about it, he is not a fringe scholar. You can look up his credentials here on his website. And, no, I will not be taking his words out of context like I mistakenly did with Seyyed Hossein Nasr. I have carved out some time this evening to specifically address this important topic.

The Essenes are not simply one group, but they are multiple groups in various camps throughout the land. You will see why this is a good place to start the discussion in a moment. These various groups are important to keep in mind because the Damascus Document emphasizes the new covenant and includes families with children (CD 7.6-7); on the other end of the spectrum there is the more rigorous group of priests, according to the author, represented in the Rule of the Community. He suggests there could include an inner circle of twelve celibate men in this group as well (1QS 8.10-11). The author says this "temple-like" group lived in Qumran. They are called Yahad. It is this group that envisioned their community replacing the Jerusalem Temple since they believe it became corrupt in the early 2nd century BCE over a host of different issues. They had a “union-of-communities living in ‘all of their residences’ (1QS 6.1b-8) in Judea.” This community design recalls the revelation of Law to the twelve tribes at Sinai, he says. The Yahad seems to have had two divisions: the priests (Aaron) and everybody else (Israel). Here we will focus on the priests and those angels.

In these ancient texts angels are called many different things, such as gods, Angels of the Presence, and priests in the heavenly temple. The Yahad anticipated “the restoration of ‘the glory of Adam’ (1QS 4.22-23; CD 3.20; and 1QH 4.15). In 4Q171 3.1-2 the ‘inheritance of Adam’ will be made available to the community. It is ‘a crown of glory with majestic raiment in eternal light’ (1QS 4.7-8),” and he adds it is “some kind of metamorphosis,” citing Geza Verme’s work the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls. He points to 1QS 4:25. Joseph says that “initiation – with its rigorous purification rituals, holiness, esoteric knowledge, and communion with angels – had as its highest goal the transformation of its members.” Here he adds a footnote directing the reader to James H. Charlesworth’s essay “The Portrayal of the Righteous as an Angel” and Elliet R. Wolfson’s “Mysticism and the Poetic-Liturgical Compositions from Qumran: A Response to Bilhah Nitzan.” He concludes that “[t]he idea that human beings could be transformed into angels or angel-like divine human beings developed in pre-Christian circles. A number of texts found at Qumran further attest to this growing tradition . . .”

Here is one of them:

[El Elyon gave me a seat among] those perfect forever,
a mighty throne in the congregation of the gods.
None of the kings of the east shall sit in it
and their nobles shall not [come near it].
No Edomite shall be like me in glory,
and none shall be exalted save men, nor shall come against me.
For I have taken my seat in the [congregation] in the heavens,
and none [find fault with me].
I shall be reckoned with the gods
and established in the holy congregation.
I do not desire [gold], as would a man of flesh;
everything precious to me is in the glory of [my God].

 

[Ahanu]

In spirit, in some sort of visionary experience. He is not the only person to have seen a vision of the throne of God or whatever -- but Paul died.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
Corinthians 12:1-5

You can play with Bible words forever, and take them out of context to try to justify what they don't say -- it's your game and I'm not playing.

All I can do is scratch my head in confusion. You said his experience of ascent was in the spirit, but the text you cite says he does not know whether or not that experience was "in the body or apart from the body."

 

[TheLightWithin]

There is stuff going on under the hood. There are other Bahá'ís afraid to participate here, for fear of being swept up with the type of aggressive proselytizing and taking over of threads for that purpose on other forums and now on IO -- which they believe gives them a bad name, and makes it difficult for their voice to be heard.

So, sorry ...

I wish there were more Baha'i participation. I'd love to hear more. More voices would minimize any individual "being swept up" in anything IMHO

 

[RJM]

All I can do is scratch my head in confusion. You said his experience of ascent was in the spirit, but the text you cite says he does not know whether or not that experience was "in the body or apart from the body."

Fudge

Paul is dead and buried like Baha'u'lla. Muhammad too (pbuh). According to the Bible Elijah did not die, he ascended; Jesus did not die, he ascended.

But Baha'i commemorate Baha'u'llah's ascension, not his death on May 29th, to try to make him seem like Jesus, imo

 

[Ahanu]

Fudge

Paul is dead and buried like Baha'u'lla. According to the Bible Elijah did not die, he ascended; Jesus did not die, he ascended.

That's nice. But I wish you would answer my original question: where does Paul distinguish between a visionary experience/spiritual ascension versus a physical ascension in his writings when talking about his own experience?

 

[RJM]

That's nice. But I wish you would answer my original question: where does Paul distinguish between a visionary experience/spiritual ascension versus a physical ascension in his writings?

He says he doesn't know whether he dreamed it or not. Whatever happened, he woke up in bed and eventually went on to die like other mortal men, including Baha'u'llah.

It's not the point. Death is not ascension. It has the opposite meaning. Ascension is of the physical body.

But Baha'i commerorate Baha'u'llah's ascension, not his death on May 29th, to try to make him seem like Jesus. It's not honest, imo

 

[Ahanu]

He says he doesn't know whether he dreamed it or not. Whatever happened, he woke up in bed and eventually went on to die like other mortal men, including Baha'u'llah.

Thanks.

It's not the point. Death is not ascension. It has the opposite meaning. Ascension is of the physical body.

Okay. Ascension in physical space. Got it.

But Baha'i commerorate Baha'u'llah's ascension, not his death on May 29th, to try to make him seem like Jesus. It's not honest, imo

It is not the word ascension that makes him seem like Jesus in my opinion.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit continues to influence and impact human civilization? I do. I would note that the modern notion that everybody - no matter what social class they come from - has innate human worth springs from the wave Christ started long, long, long ago.

What about Baha'u'llah?

The human spirit does not exist in space and time. Although Baha'u'llah has "ascended" from the physical realm, his Spirit influences an ever-advancing civilization, and through this influence new arts will be created, new discoveries will be made, and a new moral revolution unfold. To see this influence, one only needs to look at the Baha'i community in Iran.

Here I'll end with a quote from Baha'u'llah that underpins this idea:

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. … The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit."

 

[RJM]

Thanks.

Okay. Ascension in physical space. Got it.


It is not the word ascension that makes him seem like Jesus in my opinion.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit continues to influence and impact human civilization? I do. I would note that the modern notion that everybody - no matter what social class they come from - has innate human worth springs from the wave Christ started long, long, long ago.

What about Baha'u'llah?

The human spirit does not exist in space and time. Although Baha'u'llah has "ascended" from the physical realm, his Spirit influences an ever-advancing civilization, and through this influence new arts will be created, new discoveries will be made, and a new moral revolution unfold.

Here I'll end with a quote from Baha'u'llah that underpins this idea:

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. … The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit."

Irrelevant.

The life of Christ ends with His physical ascension. That is the clear meaning of the word in the context. Baha'u'llah did not ascend physically, he died.

Death is not ascension, in the sense understood by the ascension of Jesus. It is the exact opposite.

It's not honest to claim Baha'u'llah"s ascension, attempting comparison to Jesus. Words won't change it.

 

[Ahanu]

Irrelevant.

The life of Christ ends with His physical ascension. That is the meaning of the word. Baha'u'llah did not ascend physically, he died.

Carl Sagan once reportedly said: "If Jesus literally ascended into the sky and traveled at the speed of light, then he hasn’t yet escaped our galaxy."

Death is not ascension, in the sense understood by the ascension of Jesus. It is the exact opposite.

Okay.

Words won't change it.

Okay.

 

[RJM]

Carl Sagan once reportedly said: "If Jesus literally ascended into the sky and traveled at the speed of light, then he hasn’t yet escaped our galaxy."

You mock, yet claim to venerate the Christ?

I understand it in the sense His natural physical resurrected body dissolved back into the Spirit, which surrounds and contains and permeates nature.

Spirit weaves nature. The Christ (Son) chose to incarnate in nature and when his mission was accomplished he returned to the Father (Spirit) from whence He came.

 

[Ahanu]

I understand it in the sense His natural physical resurrected body dissolved back into the Spirit, which surrounds and contains and permeates nature.

Spirit weaves nature. The Christ (Son) chose to incarnate in nature and when His mission was accomplished He returned to the Father (Spirit) from whence He came.

That's nice. But Acts 1.11 says otherwise: “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky?" It does not say he dissolved.

 

[RJM]

That's nice. But Acts 1.11 says otherwise: “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky?" It does not say he dissolved.

So what? You take the words literally when it suits you, but when it comes to ascension you claim all sorts of different meanings.

 

[Ahanu]

So what? You take the words literally when it suits you, but when it comes to ascension you claim all sorts of different meanings.

Oh, I don't actually believe in taking Acts 1.11 literally. I only want to see how YOU read those words.

 

[RJM]

Oh, I don't actually believe it. I only want to see how YOU read them.

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
Luke 24:50-53

Do you think 'heaven' is 'up' there?
Do you think that's the meaning?

 

[Ahanu]

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
Luke 24:50-53

Do you think 'Heaven' is 'up' there?
Do you think that's the meaning?

No.

 

[RJM]

@Ahanu

If you don't credit the New Testament, why do you keep trying to use it to justify Baha'u'llah?

 

[Ahanu]

@Ahanu

If you don't credit the New Testament, why do you keep trying to use it to justify Baha'u'llah?

I never said I do not credit the NT. There are some interpolations and mixed views here and there, I think, but I don't think it affects the core message.

You have your understanding of it. That is fine.

I have mine.

 

[RJM]

I never said I do not credit the NT. There are some interpolations and mixed views here and there, I think, but I don't think it affects the core message.

You have your understanding of it. That is fine.

I have mine.

Ok. We agree