A Catholic Reply to the Commentary on Verses of John by Abdu’l-Bahá

What's an angel?
Ha! Well that's a big question. St Thomas considers them pure intellectual creatures.

Interestingly, in Luke 1:19 we read "And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God: and am sent to speak to thee, and to bring thee these good tidings." This suggests self-identification 'Gabriel' which ticks the Boethian definition of a 'person': "an intellectual substance of a rational nature."

Scripture says a lot about angels – St Thomas wrote loads, he is called 'The Angelic Doctor', and not just for his good looks!
And how does The Angelic Doctor view Elijah and John the Baptist? Afterall, one could assign angelic status to Elijah: "See, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Then the Lord you seek will suddenly come to His temple, the Messenger/angel of the covenant you desire—see, He is coming,” says the Lord of Hosts" (Mal. 3.1).
 
The document in discussion seems to refute the idea.

As far as I can tell it only refutes your philosophical gloss on the idea. Reread Seyyed Hossein Nasr's comments carefully: "Islam rejects the incarnation, fixing its gaze upon the Absolute as such, which cannot become incarnated without entering into the domain of relativity." And he asked: "Does lahut enter in nasut, or is it simply reflected in it? Can the two become united in a single reality or do they remain apart?" We know which side of the debate Islam takes. Abdu'l-Baha reiterates the Islamic position in the passage that you suspect refutes the idea: "Thus, as it is evident and established that intelligible realities do not enter or inhere, it follows that it is in no wise possible for the Holy Spirit to ascend, descend, enter, exit, commingle, or inhere..."
 
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When Abdu'l-Baha writes in a flowery language that is in the style of Persian poets, @RJM is displeased. When Abdu'l-Baha speaks in conversational language that anybody can understand, @Thomas takes issue even though St. Thomas does not seem to be using scriptural language at all in his definition of an angel. 😂

Here is another passage of Abdu'l-Baha using conversational language to explain spiritual realities expressed in literal forms:

"But when you undertake to express these intelligible realities, you have no recourse but to cast them in the mould of the sensible, for outwardly there is nothing beyond the sensible. Thus, when you wish to express the reality of the spirit and its conditions and degrees, you are obliged to describe them in terms of sensible things, since outwardly there exists nothing but the sensible. For example, grief and happiness are intelligible things, but when you wish to express these spiritual conditions you say, 'My heart became heavy', or 'My heart was uplifted', although one’s heart is not literally made heavy or lifted up. Rather, it is a spiritual or intelligible condition, the expression of which requires the use of sensible terms. Another example is when you say, 'So-and-so has greatly advanced', although he has remained in the same place, or 'So-and-so has a high position', whereas, like everyone else, he continues to walk upon the earth. This elevation and advancement are spiritual conditions and intelligible realities, but to express them you must use sensible terms, since outwardly there is nothing beyond the sensible.

To cite another example, knowledge is figuratively described as light, and ignorance as darkness. But reflect: Is knowledge sensible light or ignorance sensible darkness? Certainly not. These are only intelligible conditions, but when you wish to express them outwardly you call knowledge light and ignorance darkness and say, 'My heart was dark and it became illumined.' Now, the light of knowledge and the darkness of ignorance are intelligible realities, not sensible ones, but when we seek to express them outwardly, we are obliged to give them a sensible form.

Thus it is evident that the dove which descended upon Christ was not a physical dove but a spiritual condition expressed, for the sake of comprehension, by a sensible figure. For example, in the Old Testament it is said that God appeared as a pillar of fire. Now, that which is intended is not a sensible form but an intelligible reality that has been expressed in such a form.

Christ says, 'The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father.' Now, was Christ within God or was God within Christ? No, by God! This is an intelligible condition which has been expressed in a sensible figure.

'We come to the explanation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh when He says: 'O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.' This is the station of divine revelation. It is not a sensible, but an intelligible reality. It is sanctified from and transcendent above past, present, and future. It is a comparison and an analogy—a metaphor and not a literal truth. It is not the condition that is commonly understood by the human mind when it is said that someone was asleep and then awoke, but signifies a passage from one state to another. For example, sleeping is the state of repose, and wakefulness is the state of motion. Sleeping is the state of silence, and wakefulness is the state of utterance. Sleeping is the state of concealment, and wakefulness is that of manifestation."
 
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When Abdu'l-Baha writes in a flowery language that is in the style of Persian poets, @RJM is displeased.
Don't care how he writes or how many million words to support a charismatic cult figure who thinks he's the latest version of the Christ messiah whose writing supercedes all previous world scripture and is the final go-to word of God for the whole human race for the next 800 years -- or how you guys need to mine and manipulate Abrahamic scripture to try to justify your claims.

Leave me out of it, lol
 
Don't care how he writes or how many million words to support a charismatic cult figure who thinks he's the latest version of the Christ messiah whose writing supercedes all previous world scripture and is the final go-to word of God for the whole human race for the next 800 years -- or how you guys need to mine and manipulate Abrahamic scripture to try to justify your claims.

Leave me out of it, lol

I suggest you review the code of conduct.
 
a charismatic cult figure

I mean, I don't mind someone expressing their disagreements and poking fun sometimes, but calling Baha'u'llah a cult figure or the Baha'i Faith a cult is unacceptable for this forum.
 
I mean, I don't mind someone expressing their disagreements and poking fun sometimes, but calling Baha'u'llah a cult figure or the Baha'i Faith a cult is unacceptable for this forum.
Why?
 
Because of the strong negative connotations.
Negative connotations? Why aren't you a cult?

When you call trinitarian Christianity false and misguided because the Qur'an says so, Catholics take it on the chin. Don't you like strong opposition?
 
I've not reached conclusion lightly, but come to it from originally having an open mind on the subject on these forums
 
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I mean, I don't mind someone expressing their disagreements and poking fun sometimes, but calling Baha'u'llah a cult figure or the Baha'i Faith a cult is unacceptable for this forum.
To be fair.. according to Christians it is a cult. To Christians Jesus + anything = a false gospel and a religious following of such a message is considered a cult. Trust me.. Christians get labeled all kinds of things . You need a tougher skin. 😊
 
Don't care how he writes or how many million how you guys need to mine and manipulate Abrahamic scripture to try to justify your claims.

Sigh. Have it your way then.

Nothing new under the Sun. Some Jewish opponents called the Christian revelation avon gilyon (iniquitous revelation) or aven gilyon (worthless revelation). Fun wordplay with the word evangelion (gospel).

Yes, let's have discussions like that! No holds barred, you manipulator! 🙄
 
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When you call trinitarian Christianity false and misguided because the Qur'an says so

Where have I recently said that in this thread?

Well, I do not have a problem with @Thomas in this respect so far even though he has called Baha'i teachings wrong in various ways in this thread. One can have a civilized discussion with him without being called a manipulator. This is not middle school.
 
To be fair.. according to Christians it is a cult. To Christians Jesus + anything = a false gospel and a religious following of such a message is considered a cult. Trust me.. Christians get labeled all kinds of things . You need a tougher skin. 😊

But he doesn't call Islam a cult or Muhammad a cult figure.
 
So how does St. Thomas square that with "the priest" being "the messenger of the Lord of Hosts?" (Mal. 2.7) Messengers from heaven are commonly called angels. No wonder Hecataeus, a Greek writing around 300 BCE, described the priest as an angel of God's command. When the priest spoke, says Hecataeus, the Jews immediately fell to the ground in worship.

Qumran priests were angels on earth, so one can say "the priest . . . is the angel of the Lord of Hosts." Was St. Thomas unaware of Qumran tradition - a tradition Jesus was clearly aware of?
For more on this idea of heavenly ascent, transformation, and angels, I recommend checking out the video below - "How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity" - for an overview regarding Paul's experience:

 
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But he doesn't call Islam a cult or Muhammad a cult figure.
It's false equivalence to assume that because Baha'u'llah claimed to be a messenger after Muhammad -- that makes him the same as Muhammad. Or that because Baha'u'llah's life may share one or two obscure parallels with the life of Jesus, that makes him equal to the Christ?
For more on this idea of heavenly ascent, transformation, and angels, I recommend checking out the video below - "How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity" - for an overview regarding Paul's experience:

Ascension means physical ascension, rather than death. Elijah ascended. That is the clear accepted meaning of the term. A person who died and is buried cannot be said to have ascended.

Baha'u'llah died and was buried, like any other man. He did not ascend, in the clear sense of the word, so we need to find ways to fudge, imo
 
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The issue to me is never Baha'i right to their beliefs and own writings and scriptures, but the need to try to find justification in Abrahamic scripture for Baha'u'llah to claim equality with Jesus the Christ -- or even higher 'station' than Jesus, as the Father.
 
So how does St. Thomas square that with "the priest" being "the messenger of the Lord of Hosts?" (Mal. 2.7)
No doubt Thomas read the text in context – the prophet is speaking out against false priests (Malachi 2:1), and the true priest:
"The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me (The Lord) in peace, and in equity, and turned many away from iniquity. For the lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they (the people) shall seek the law at his mouth: because he is the angel of the Lord of hosts."
Angel is the sense that he fulfils the angelic function of messenger, as do prophets, as ministers of God, and mouthpieces for, in this instance, to the Angel of the Law.

Messengers from heaven are commonly called ...
Context is everything.

angels. No wonder Hecataeus, a Greek writing around 300 BCE, described the priest as an angel of God's command. When the priest spoke, says Hecataeus, the Jews immediately fell to the ground in worship.
Because the saw themselves in the Divine Presence – not that they fell to the ground to worship the person of the priest.

Qumran priests were angels on earth, so one can say "the priest . . . is the angel of the Lord of Hosts." Was St. Thomas unaware of Qumran tradition - a tradition Jesus was clearly aware of?
Might well have been unaware, as the Qumran texts were long lost by then ... but he would have understood the context, and not read them purely literally as disposing of a whole tradition of Hebrew literature.

If you Google 'angels' and 'Qumran', you'll realise just how wrong you are concerning this topic.
 
So does the Holy Spirit require human embodiment in order to speak or not?
No. I never said He did, not sure @RJM did either. I just gave an example of one of the ways He acts.

As for speaking through nature, I would argue this simply means a person translates what they think nature is saying through the Holy Spirit. Nature doesn't speak in any human language.
I see nature as theophany.
 
. I never said He did, not sure @RJM did either
I believe the opposite is true. The divine speaks directly to man in many ways, perhaps sometimes the words of a stranger, or in dreams, thoughts, intuitions, conscience -- many ways, imo.

God guides every sincere individual soul in an individual way: regardless of time, place, or religion
 
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