Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

[dauer]

Before addressing Basstian, there was someone who challenged my statement about mistranslations and if you do have a problem with one of the words I called a mistranslation, please let me know and we can look at the Hebrew word and then where else it occurs in the Tanach in order to better understand its meaning. If Christianity is strong in its belief that it agrees in full with all of the scriptures, then there should be no reason for it to rely on mistranslation any longer. I would point out the most well-known mistranslation, which is taking almah and translating it as virgin instead of young woman.

I feel safe in saying the Jews in 33ad would not have stould very well in a trial before Moses ,Aaron and the Leaders of the Tribes. Because of traditions that had been added or Changed or forgotton during captivity in Babylon.

What traditions? From my own liberal position I would say that Judaism was always changing, and the Judaism of Abraham (if he even existed) was different from that of Moses, which was different from that of David, which was different from that of Ezekial, which was different from that of Ezra. Even within the Torah, it is easily recognized that Deuteronomy was a later addition to the text, reflecting the Josianic Reforms. If you are going to recognize one change, you might as well try to recognize them all.

From a more traditional position, the oral torah and the written torah were recieved at Sinai and handed down from generation to generation, as detailed in Pirkei Avot. Jesus even confirms this when he says the pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. For you who are so removed from that society, this cannot mean so much. But for me, knowing what was being said at that time, it is clear that it was an endorsement of the position of the Pharisees as rightful inheritors of the oral Torah. So nu. What changed?

In alot of ways that is how Jesus managed 3 yrs of teaching and debating with the scribes before His appointed time had come. Without being brought to trial.

How do you know any of that happened as described in your highly polemical sacred text? The greek testament treats the Jewish people like the Tanach treats the Amalekites. (and that was said from my position as a liberal Jew)

In the same manner that the time span away from Sinai and 33 ad Had changed the Jewish religion . The Time span between 33 ad and Now has changed Christianity. We similiar to the Jews were held captive by the church of rome. The religion we came out of that captivity with is Far diferent than the religion shown to us in the Book of Acts Many Doctrinal Changes that would be considered Idolatry even Blasphemy to the Church of acts exist in our religion today.

Religions grow and evolve. Why is it so horrible that yours has changed? What is this obsession with the "good ole days"? We're always re-declaring when was Eden (and this does not mean we invalidate previous Edens.) For example, in traditional Judaism it is as if Israel of Old has become an Eden. Hasidim might look to the old country as an Eden. An aging man might look to his youth as an Eden. You are looking to the early days of Christianity, "before all of that horrible corruption and nonsense", as an Eden. It is only natural for people to do this, to glorify the past. But why? We're living in the present.

The fact is I knew we did not have a very good chance being found inocent and am thankful to our friend dauer for the awesome role play that brought us all to this realization.

I finished Julliard a year early.

MAKE NO MISTAKE I dont feel it was proven that Jesus was not the messiah or that He is not the Son of God

I don't think any argument could convince you of that.

it only to me proves we have a need to do everything possible to erase the untruths from our doctrine and return to the faith and religion of our fathers.

How will you discern the faith and religion of your fathers?

Dauer I would like to see the results of a trial of your Religious beliefs (not personal) but of the Jewish community setting The encampment of Israel just before entering the promise land. Using the laws handed to your forfathers to see how your religion would fair.

The issue I have here is that my personal beliefs are not mine alone. Liberal Judaism is very popular and varies quite a bit. If you are saying that it will be a trial of Orthodox Judaism, then it can only be with the fact in mind that both the written Torah and oral Torah were recieved at Sinai, and that the Sages were the bearers of the oral Torah who finally wrote it down, despite the fact it was not supposed to be written down, in order to protect it from being lost or distorted. This is what is recorded about the oral Torah:

"Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it Joshua. Joshua transmitted it to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise many students, and make a protective fence for the Torah." Avot 1:1

It continues on like this with words from different people along the way as I will demonstrate:

"Shimon the Righteous was of the last survivors of the Men of the Great Assembly. He used to say, the world is based upon three things: on Torah, on service [of G-d], and on acts of kindness." 1:2

Now if you want to have a thread which demonstrates evidence of the Oral Torah found within Torah, that would be something else entirely but the form of a trial would still not make sense. Either way, those threads should be in the Judaism section.

And if you do want to attempt to find fault in liberal Judaism, please go ahead. But I would of course be answering from a liberal perspective.

This Trial may continue if you wish or we can now discuss how it has left us feeling or what we have learned

I don't mind continuing although at this point it might make sense to do away with the rigid trial format. If we're going to examine something, let's examine it. But not as prosecution and defense.

Dauer

 

[dauer]

Bandit,

I was mistaken about life after death through the mitzvot. It is promised. I will show you.

Psa 133 (KJV) "A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! 2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; 3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore."

A blessing for evermore. This is a reference to something else:

Deu 4:44-48 (KJV) "And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel: 45 These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt, 46 On this side Jordan, in the valley over against Bethpeor, in the land of Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt at Heshbon, whom Moses and the children of Israel smote, after they were come forth out of Egypt: 47 And they possessed his land, and the land of Og king of Bashan, two kings of the Amorites, which were on this side Jordan toward the sun rising; 48 From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,"

unto mount sion, which is Hermon. Compare with line 3 of the psalm. The laws and statutes grant life after death.

And according to Targum Jonathan, which was recording early traditions, the following vs.

Lev 18:5 - "You shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord."

Should be rendered:

TARGUM, Lev 18:5 - And you shall keep My statutes, and the order of My judgments, which if a man do he shall live in them, in the life of eternity, and his portion shall be with the just: I am the Lord.

http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/pj/psjon.htm

Further:

Deut 30:6 - "...to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live."

TARGUM - Deut 30:6 - "...which will give you the dictate to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, that your lives may flow on for evermore."


Even more exemplary:

Deut 30:17-20
17. But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them,
18. I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.
19. This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;
20. To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them.

Rendered as:

I attest this day, not only you, who are to pass away from this world, but the heavens and the earth, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and its reverse. Choose therefore the way of life, even the law, that you and your children may live the life of the world to come; that you may love the Lord thy God, to obey His Word, and keep close unto His fear; for the law in which you occupy yourselves will be your life in this world,[2] and the prolongment of your days in the world that cometh; and you shall be gathered together at the end of the scattering,[3] and dwell upon the land which the Lord sware to your fathers, to Abraham, Izhak, and Jakob, to give it unto them.

So this is the way Torah was understood.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

Hey Dauer

I think the trial perspective was pretty good and you did a nice job as prosecuter. (I had to say you were awful though because you were going to chop my head off. ) I don't think anyone was really attacking anyone in this, but simply prosecuting and defending as in a role. I actually learned a lot of things out of it. It did open my eyes to some things I never saw before concerning the bible and how it has been preserved over the centuries. It was much better than debate or arguing the same stuff over and over. (trying to prove others wrong in heated debates is just not my idea of a healthy life.)

I believe we will all be heading in a direction of turbulant times where political and religious powers are going to seek 'peace' and that many will be put into trials (so to speak).

I personally have no objective in my life to force the things I see on anyone and we really do not have to defend ourselves because God will be the final prosecuter and defender for all the things we do, say and believe.

The bringing into subjection for beliefs and disbeliefs to be proved cannot be done when they are matters of faith. However they can be defended and prosecuted, depending on the political or religious setting it is held in.

Stuff like the Paul 'conspiracy', Jesus 'Mysteries' and other things like that can easily be made a defense for, but I have no interest in doing that because everyone is going to believe what they choose.
Sometimes a person can have an experience that no one will ever understand except for another person who has had the same experience.
On the other hand, the mind is capable of wandering into many directions and establish things that may or may not be true. This can also be done when someone interjects certain words to 'influence and persuade' others to believe something that is not true, rather an opinion, suggestion, theory etc.
I have a pretty good sense for those things and I did not see anyone here doing that in the trial.

I also think SacredStar did an excellent job in her posts, I felt like mom was trying the battlefield for her kids to sit down and shut up. Also as she stated, we don't need to defend ourselves.

It was very good for me because it established my faith even stronger in the bible both the OT and NT as a masterpiece book that has been stampeeded, torched, accused and hated by many and it still lives. As it is has also been cherished and loved as a manifestation of God to his people in these days.

Thanks once again Comparative Religion for a very beneficial and productive forum.

 

[dauer]

I believe we will all be heading in a direction of turbulant times where political and religious powers are going to seek 'peace' and that many will be put into trials (so to speak).

Would you care to elaborate on this? I'm not sure I follow.

I personally have no objective in my life to force the things I see on anyone and we really do not have to defend ourselves because God will be the final prosecuter and defender for all the things we do, say and believe.

I agree entirely.

However they can be defended and prosecuted, depending on the political or religious setting it is held in.

How would that work? I can't think of a situation where this could be done fairly, unless it was an issue of immoral behavior in the service of God.

Dauer

 

[Basstian]

Dauer my friend I am asking for your wisdomr on this subject

All thruough out the ole testament and even in our New testement
there are three sets of Law
One was what we refer to as the Ten Comandment Basic in all rights Love God
Love your neighbor
The second were statutes I would say these were cerimonial laws and things pertaining to the priesthood and the order of worship

The third Ordinances (precepts) these were a civil type law haveing to do with say if your ox gored your neighbor, Someone was using unjust business practices etc.

The second set changed with the building of the temple in some ways all the tent rules had to be adapted to a solid building they were modified for the situation

The third set was more or less adaptable thru the wise judgement of elders most would not apply to this modern era with our computers and all these gadgets that were not even thought of at the time so the precepts I believe Had to be adaptable
One example was when asked about Divorce Jesus Siad Moses gave you that Precept meaning to me it was decided by the leaders of the time.

But The Original Ten the Big one do they remain unchanged in the Jewish Culture or have they somehow become adaptable as the other two types?

Does this idea have any similarity with any doctrine in the Jewish faith?

Too a comment saying Jesus said not to look at women
I am married I love my wife If I were to log on to a porn site and look at these nude young women and lust after the flesh than I have indeed in my heart commited adultry. Our teacher James said
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jesus was Discouraging Good men from going wrong. Not saying that to see a woman walking down the street and say hello. Was adultry. Sin can be committed in the heart and mind I believe this and battle every day with it.
Had he comanded not to look at women it would have been simple and plain
I command you Not to look at women.

It seems we both have some to learn about each others faith and have also been taught some false hoods about each others faiths that I hope will one day be cleared up and truth will prevail along with unity.

Peace

 

[Bandit]

Would you care to elaborate on this? I'm not sure I follow.



I agree entirely.



How would that work? I can't think of a situation where this could be done fairly, unless it was an issue of immoral behavior in the service of God.

Dauer

I don't think I should elaborate on it too much. I am seeing things differently from many in the OT and I know you do not hold true to the NT, so it would not be profitable. But in general, we are all seeing the possibilites of one world government and religion. Never has the earth been under one mortal government but I see it heading that direction. Also, neither has the earth been completely conquered in land as it is now.
The only way to get a one world government in complete control is to start with the money system. Which is in progress in many ways but I don't think people see it. If they do, they are ignoring it.
Another step is to make some kind of adjustments or agreements on each countries belief systems because that is half of the battle as we know it.

I know they are telling us that global laws will be seperate from countries laws and those will be seperate from state laws. But if things continue with this sense of unsetteld peace we either go into world war or compromise is made and that is where new laws and one world order comes in.
How long will it last? I don't think very long.
That is where I am coming from.


As for a fair trial on faith I can only use an example. If I am in a communist country and they decide to haul me to prison, my chances of getting out would be slim, Especially if I uphold the gospel of Jesus whom they despise (for example a missionary). In the states I could be arrested for the same offense and I will at least get a visit from a minister and most likely a God fearing judge to hear me. A judge in the U.S. may even consider someones service to a church or temple in a lighter judgement.

It will depend on the country and maybe even the state? and where the where person involved is from. The U.S. is very tolerant on beliefs but some countries do not want any any freedom of religion and it does not matter where an individual is from.

I have only seen moral issues in the service of God handled within the congregation itself. I am not sure how that would work in a setting where the religion and politics is the same. I suppose it would be the same way as the camp of Israel in the wilderness.?.

What do you think about any of this?

 

[dauer]

Dauer my friend I am asking for your wisdomr on this subject

All thruough out the ole testament and even in our New testement
there are three sets of Law
One was what we refer to as the Ten Comandment Basic in all rights Love God
Love your neighbor

The ten commandments are not called such in Hebrew. When they are referened in the bible the best translation would be "The Ten Sayings" and not the "ten commandments." They hold no more of a central role as commandments than any others. All 613 are important. It can be shown that all of the others are found within the Ten Sayings. Also, depending on the Christian sect what the ten are will be understood in slightly different ways and in Judaism they are counted slightly differently too. This deals with the issue:

http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

The second were statutes I would say these were cerimonial laws and things pertaining to the priesthood and the order of worship

The third Ordinances (precepts) these were a civil type law haveing to do with say if your ox gored your neighbor, Someone was using unjust business practices etc.

Is it always so clear to say what is moral and what is ritual? Does the text itself distinguish between moral and ritual? The 613 mitzvot can be found here for reference:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

You may wish to copy my response and start a new thread in the Judaism section of the board.

The second set changed with the building of the temple in some ways all the tent rules had to be adapted to a solid building they were modified for the situation

So did they really change or were they the same, but being applied to a new situation?

The third set was more or less adaptable thru the wise judgement of elders most would not apply to this modern era with our computers and all these gadgets that were not even thought of at the time so the precepts I believe Had to be adaptable

So are you saying that any of the 613 are not applicable in our present situation? Some clearly aren't. The ones for the Beit HaMikdash cannot be fulfilled without the Beit HaMikdash, but because there is no Beit HaMikdash and because the books of the prophets explain what is to be done in the absence of the Beit HaMikdash, this is not an issue. There are also some that only apply in Israel, mainly agricultural laws.

One example was when asked about Divorce Jesus Siad Moses gave you that Precept meaning to me it was decided by the leaders of the time.

Divorce is mentioned specifically in the Torah in Deut 24 (a Christian translation might be numbered differently)

1. When a man takes a wife and is intimate with her, and it happens that she does not find favor in his eyes because he discovers in her an unseemly [moral] matter, and he writes for her a bill of divorce and places it into her hand, and sends her away from his house,


2. and she leaves his house and goes and marries another man,


3. if the latter husband hates her and writes her a bill of divorce, and places it into her hand and sends her away from his house, or if the latter husband who took her as a wife, dies


4. her first husband, who had sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, since she was defiled [to him], for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin to the land the Lord, your God, gives you for an inheritance.

I would suggest this is one more example of the late authorship of the books of the Greek Testament.

But The Original Ten the Big one do they remain unchanged in the Jewish Culture or have they somehow become adaptable as the other two types?

The mitzvot don't change. They are applied to new situations using the Oral Torah (which contains the tools for doing thus) as a guide. According to traditional Judaism the oral Torah and written Torah were both recieved at Sinai. As I have said, Jesus seems to agree with this statement.

Does this idea have any similarity with any doctrine in the Jewish faith?

All of the 613 mitzvot are important traditionally and the value of one over another cannot be properly understood. It's not an either/or. They are all important.

Too a comment saying Jesus said not to look at women
I am married I love my wife If I were to log on to a porn site and look at these nude young women and lust after the flesh than I have indeed in my heart commited adultry.

What if you are walking down the street and you begin to have thoughts about a particular actress or supermodel, your mind running over the curves of her body. You realize she was in your mind and you bring your thoughts to something else. Have you just sinned by thinking about this woman? Why?

I never meant that looking at a woman was a sin, but that having lustful thoughts about her was a sin. This is not found in Torah. It is creating a sin out of something that is not. It is our actions that make a difference. If regulating your thoughts will help you regulate your actions, then regulate your thoughts. But does that make your thoughts a sin? It seems like it's an attempt to extend the nature of sin in order to make man appear more sinful and more in need of salvation.

It seems we both have some to learn about each others faith and have also been taught some false hoods about each others faiths that I hope will one day be cleared up and truth will prevail along with unity.

I don't think unity is much of an issue. These days Jews and Christians get along very well, as long as those Christians are not the missionizing kind. It is also difficult for me to call something a false hood, when there are so many very different sects of Christianity and what may be false for you would not be false for someone else.

Dauer

 

[dauer]

I don't think I should elaborate on it too much. I am seeing things differently from many in the OT and I know you do not hold true to the NT, so it would not be profitable. But in general, we are all seeing the possibilites of one world government and religion. Never has the earth been under one mortal government but I see it heading that direction. Also, neither has the earth been completely conquered in land as it is now.
The only way to get a one world government in complete control is to start with the money system. Which is in progress in many ways but I don't think people see it. If they do, they are ignoring it.
Another step is to make some kind of adjustments or agreements on each countries belief systems because that is half of the battle as we know it.

I know they are telling us that global laws will be seperate from countries laws and those will be seperate from state laws. But if things continue with this sense of unsetteld peace we either go into world war or compromise is made and that is where new laws and one world order comes in.
How long will it last? I don't think very long.
That is where I am coming from.


As for a fair trial on faith I can only use an example. If I am in a communist country and they decide to haul me to prison, my chances of getting out would be slim, Especially if I uphold the gospel of Jesus whom they despise (for example a missionary). In the states I could be arrested for the same offense and I will at least get a visit from a minister and most likely a God fearing judge to hear me. A judge in the U.S. may even consider someones service to a church or temple in a lighter judgement.

It will depend on the country and maybe even the state? and where the where person involved is from. The U.S. is very tolerant on beliefs but some countries do not want any any freedom of religion and it does not matter where an individual is from.

I have only seen moral issues in the service of God handled within the congregation itself. I am not sure how that would work in a setting where the religion and politics is the same. I suppose it would be the same way as the camp of Israel in the wilderness.?.

What do you think about any of this?

Well I'm not really sure it is any particular government taking control, at least in America. It seems more like the big businesses are running the show. This seems very dangerous to me. I don't feel a powerful global government would be wise because ultimate power will ultimately corrupt. I also think at this time that there are too many differences between societies, for example Islamic and Western. I'm not sure everyone would want to be represented in the same way.

I don't think we can really make agreements about belief systems, if that means modifying them. Nobody is going to buy that. The only place where this might be useful is in parts of the world where a religious governement is leading a less moral society. But I don't think we can force our view of morality on them either, at least to a point.

Up until the final exile, there really was very little distinction between religion, politics, culture. Judaism remains a tribal religion but at that time, like all of the surrounding nations, there really was no separation at all. The Sanhedrin operated from the Beit HaMikdash and answered both moral, ritual, and legal issues. The kings were supposed to have a Torah scroll with them by their throne. The prophets spoke about politics as much as they spoke about morality and such. Solomon's wisdom was attributed to God.

If we were taking an even more modern approach to the text, we could show that some of the things that don't appear to be political, that appear to be moral, are actually polemic against different aspects of Ancient Israelite society.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

Well I'm not really sure it is any particular government taking control, at least in America. It seems more like the big businesses are running the show. This seems very dangerous to me. I don't feel a powerful global government would be wise because ultimate power will ultimately corrupt. I also think at this time that there are too many differences between societies, for example Islamic and Western. I'm not sure everyone would want to be represented in the same way.

I don't think we can really make agreements about belief systems, if that means modifying them. Nobody is going to buy that. The only place where this might be useful is in parts of the world where a religious governement is leading a less moral society. But I don't think we can force our view of morality on them either, at least to a point.

Up until the final exile, there really was very little distinction between religion, politics, culture. Judaism remains a tribal religion but at that time, like all of the surrounding nations, there really was no separation at all. The Sanhedrin operated from the Beit HaMikdash and answered both moral, ritual, and legal issues. The kings were supposed to have a Torah scroll with them by their throne. The prophets spoke about politics as much as they spoke about morality and such. Solomon's wisdom was attributed to God.

If we were taking an even more modern approach to the text, we could show that some of the things that don't appear to be political, that appear to be moral, are actually polemic against different aspects of Ancient Israelite society.

Dauer

Right I dont think it is just the U.S. or a particular religion that will prevail, but some kind of global merging. I see this already abundantly in business, trade and econmoics. This makes me afraid a little too. Business is the first effort, then poiltics and religion come next. I often wonder about the big business men and how much of there influence will make some of these things happen.
In my business I have been forced to do everything online. It is now to the point all income goes directly to the bank before I ever get a penny physically in my hand to spend. All the merchants and vendors require everything done online. There have been numerous times where the bank has been able to put my entire accounts on 'hold' for up to 3 days. It is real hard to sort through the details.

I did not realize there was little seperation between Israel and the rest of the powers. I did not know the kings used the Torah scroll either. I thought it was always kept in the camp. Interesting.

 

[micklemas2004]

DEFENSE:-
My learned teachers, I will not bore you with texts as you should know them well enough.
I stand now before you for judgement.

My Lord Jesus, Son of Jehovah, spoke to you in person and you judged Him guilty.

You have seen His miracles performed in front of your eyes and you judged Him guilty.

Thousands of people have heard His teachings, He fed them when there was no food, He turned water in to wine when it was needed, He has healed the sick, made the blind see, and made the lame walk. And they have judged Him innocent.

Now judge me as you see fit. For to stand before you and proclaim the name of The Risen Lord as my Saviour I know that when his Kingdom comes I will be sitting with Him in paradise for all eternity.

 

[dauer]

I did not realize there was little seperation between Israel and the rest of the powers. I did not know the kings used the Torah scroll either. I thought it was always kept in the camp. Interesting.

There was separation between the powers. But religion at that time in the whole region was merged with society/culture/politics/etc.

I think as far as the camp that you are thinking of the ark. That was in the Beit hamikdash by the time there were kings. A Torah scroll would not have been entirely uncommon, in whatever form it took at that time. There is a mitzvah in the Torah that a king have such a scroll by his throne so that he will rule fairly.

Dauer

 

[Basstian]

THIS OFF THE SUBJECT OF THE MAIN THREAD BUT HAS BEEN MADE A SMALL PART OF THIS TRIAL.

What if you are walking down the street and you begin to have thoughts about a particular actress or supermodel, your mind running over the curves of her body. You realize she was in your mind and you bring your thoughts to something else. Have you just sinned by thinking about this woman? Why?

Dauer I have sinned if this takes place as you describe. As soon as I start coveting that woman I have sinned.
I Had this problem when young and first married. I Lusted after women I thought about them in the way you described.
I came to my wife and told her and asked her solution. Grant it I took a chance on her being Mad and getting the lecture of a lifetime I asked anyway.
Her answer astounded me. She said when ever you see a woman and you feel that you have crossed that line into lusting after her I want you to pray for her until it leaves your mind pray that God will bless her provide for her needs protect her familiy etcetc. IT WORKS it drove sinful thoughts so far from my mind I knew I had truely been blessed with a Godly wife.
I still se people and pray for them but very very very seldom now is it because of this reason. Our Bible says resist the devil and he will Flee from you I believe this to be true.

micklemas2004 well Said I stand with you my friend

The ten commandments are not called such in Hebrew. When they are referened in the bible the best translation would be "The Ten Sayings" and not the "ten commandments." They hold no more of a central role as commandments than any others.

So all that time Moses spent on the mountain he could have done relaxing in a tent?
I am not saying this to be offensive though I am sure it will be taken wrong
God seemed to pick the perfect time for Jesus to Arrive as Had your people continued on they would have been building Golden calves and Bowing to the Gods Of Babylon like they Did in the days of the prophets.
Even if you consider our Old testament a mistranslation of the oratory of the Jews it at least Keeps the perspective that God Not the people is in control its Shows a plan for your salvation.
Your version seems to leave gaps that allow men to prevert the law and lead your people astray as easy cattle thief when the barn gate is left open.
Many Jews now Dont even believe in God and use the title the way I would say I am American Indian ( I couldnt shot a Bow and arrow and hit the target if my life depended on it) but hey I am a card carrying Indian.

I am a Christian because I found God or rather He found me He saved me from this Life of Sin and gave me Hope for tommorrow the same Hope he gave Abraham I am indeed saved and his Child thankful every day for the adoption
I am a Jew inwardly Because of my faith in Jesus the Son of God His Chosen one the Messiah King of Kings Lord of Lords.

I see confusion in both our religions I see people claiming to Do things in the name of Christ that I Know He would detest.
My Church like yours is not perfect. But my God is

 

[dauer]

DEFENSE:-
My learned teachers, I will not bore you with texts as you should know them well enough.

So you admit that you could not prove the truth of your argument based on the Tanach itself?

My Lord Jesus,

You worship a man?

Son of Jehovah,

Who is this person? The name sounds foreign.

spoke to you in person and you judged Him guilty.

I have no recollection of such an event.

You have seen His miracles performed in front of your eyes and you judged Him guilty.

Where are you getting all of this rubbish? And what has performing miracles got to do with HaMoshiach?

Thousands of people have heard His teachings,

You mean from him personally? How do you know? And if it is true, how does this make you innocent of idolatry?

He fed them when there was no food, He turned water in to wine when it was needed, He has healed the sick, made the blind see, and made the lame walk.

How do you know? More rubbish. You're on trial for avodah zerah. Do you wish to defend yourself or are you going to talk more about your myths?

And they have judged Him innocent.

Of what?

Now judge me as you see fit. For to stand before you and proclaim the name of The Risen Lord as my Saviour I know that when his Kingdom comes I will be sitting with Him in paradise for all eternity.

You are guilty of avodah zerah for worshipping a physical creation. You have admitted it yourself. Are you sure you don't want to change your statement?

Dauer

BTW. Welcome to the forum. If you didn't bother to read the rest of the thread, I would suggest doing so before bothering to respond to me as it probably contains all of the arguments I'd need to make in response to any of yours.

 

[dauer]

THIS OFF THE SUBJECT OF THE MAIN THREAD BUT HAS BEEN MADE A SMALL PART OF THIS TRIAL.

So all that time Moses spent on the mountain he could have done relaxing in a tent?

No. The traditional Jewish view is that the entire Torah and oral Torah were recieved on Sinai. There is a midrash (which is exegetical and cannot be taken necessarily as a literal truth) that Moses wrote the verses about his death and not entering the land in his own tears.

I am not saying this to be offensive though I am sure it will be taken wrong
God seemed to pick the perfect time for Jesus to Arrive as Had your people continued on they would have been building Golden calves and Bowing to the Gods Of Babylon like they Did in the days of the prophets.

Jesus wasn't the only person upset with Temple practice. The Pharisees were very upset about it because the Sadducees were becoming very corrupt. They were only concerned with the ceremonial, ritual aspects of their roles as kohanim and were Helenizing. They were also aristocracy. Whether or not Jesus came, the Beit HaMikdash still would have fallen and the Pharisees still would have carried on the mitzvot. Jesus was not the only false messiah (don't be offended) who came at that time. And there is a famous one who came just a little bit later and was more successful (even though he wasn't such a nice guy); Bar Kokhba.

Even if you consider our Old testament a mistranslation of the oratory of the Jews it at least Keeps the perspective that God Not the people is in control its Shows a plan for your salvation.

It stresses repeatedly that the covenant is everlasting (I can get you the info on how many times if you'd like) and that covenant is the mitzvot and God's relationship with Israel. God is in control. And God gave man the mitzvot to follow as part of an everlasting covenant. Perhaps you should do a little reading up before you begin making such bold statements.

Your version seems to leave gaps that allow men to prevert the law and lead your people astray as easy cattle thief when the barn gate is left open.

Where? I don't see this at all. 613 mitzvot:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Many Jews now Dont even believe in God

Are you sure about that or are you making unsubstantiated guesses?

and use the title the way I would say I am American Indian ( I couldnt shot a Bow and arrow and hit the target if my life depended on it) but hey I am a card carrying Indian.

Judaism is a tribal religion. When people become less observant they still remain Jewish. As long as the mother is Jewish they are. Or they may have converted. But at that point they are Jews for life. You were asking for traditional answers I thought. These are not traditional Jews. They are not following any form of Judaism once they go that far. And traditional Judaism would say that authentic Judaism should strive to follow the 613 mitzvot. These people who aren't are not keeping up with their part of the deal. If you want liberal answers, I'll give them, but you seem to reject those.

I am a Christian because I found God or rather He found me He saved me from this Life of Sin

What made your life so sinful? Why did you need God to save you? God empowers us to do this through our actions, by making good on the wrongs we've done and such. This process of teshuva (returning or repentance) bears lasting results not just on us, but also on the people we've harmed.

and gave me Hope for tommorrow the same Hope he gave Abraham I am indeed saved and his Child thankful every day for the adoption

Saved from what?

I am a Jew inwardly Because of my faith in Jesus the Son of God His Chosen one the Messiah King of Kings Lord of Lords.

That doesn't make you a Jew in any way. Worshipping a Jew is definitely not Jewish, and furthermore in order to become Jewish one must join the tribe. But if it makes you feel good about yourself you can continue to believe you're a Jew inwardly.

BTW: You don't need to be a jew, according to judaism, to get any sort of special privelage. The righeous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. And the Talmud says a righteous gentile who follows his commandments is greater than the high priest. (those commandments pertain to the beliefs and practices of Noah, of Enoch, of Abraham before God selected him, etc.)


Dauer

 

[Quahom1]

Prosecution

Listen! You heretics have forgotten the words of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst."

You have followed your dreamer of dreams into worship of himself, a man-god, a god whom your ancestors did not know. He gave you signs of wonder and you failed the test. You succombed and turned from God. Do you not know as it says in Torah:

Numbers 23:19 G-d [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Hashem did in fact proclaim, "Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no elohim acherim before me." But you have made this man into an elohim, as the word is also used for a person of authority, and placed him before God.

I recognize similarities between your beliefs, and those of the Mithraists. But I suppose that's what gradually happens to Hellenizers and pagans such as yourselves.

You introduce ideas such as human sacrifice and the view that one being can die to remove another's sin, when in fact the Torah says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16) And where in the Torah or any other part of the Tanach does it describe the method by which human sacrifice should take place? All sacrifices are clearly described, and they all take place in the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). Where is the description for a human sacrifice that dies of prolonged suffering, rather than quickly with limited suffering as God usually requires?

What say you?

(OOC: I will point out that only what you call the "OT" would be considered valid to them, and they wouldn't accept a translation that removed itself from the meaning of the Hebrew. If you feel that my presence in this thread will become a problem, I will gladly leave you be. I have decided not to balk at the historical innaccuracies of this gathering and go with it instead.)

I'm gonna try this from a different perspective Dauer, et al...

Defense: "If the court pleases, I am no heretic. I have done not one thing against this court or its officers, but oblige their "request" for my presense, and to answer for my convictions. Lo, I am not even kin to you, but a stranger wandering the byways, and "learning" new things. And before ever I entered this place, I knew only the laws that are impressed into every man's heart, regardless of where he dwells. Until now, I could not even give voice to the laws within, but knew them there. How frustrating you can imagine, to know something, but not be able to express it, for you do not know what it is you know! So like the mute that I was, I watched and listened, in hopes of learning from you, and yours.

"I learned very well. I can not be tried by you, for my beliefs nor the expression of my beliefs, according to your own laws, for they forbid it!

"According to your laws, my kind must only adhere to these: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. These "Noahic commandments" are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family.

"But I stand before you today not because I have violated any of these, but because of my beliefs, and expression of the same? Perhaps you consider my belief a form of idolatry. But you dare attempt to hold me to the same standards as you? I am not you, for I never accepted the comandmants at Sinai. I did not even know them. How then would I be expected to keep the 613 Mitzvot of the Torah, In addition, are not the Noahic commandments applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws?

"No, I merely listened to the voice of a Rabbi, and took comfort, that a priest would smile upon me and encourage me (a stranger) to look out for others, and simply accept Him, and trust that He would teach me to be free from my muted cell. He gave me two laws to follow, and encouraged me to keep trying, even when I stumbled. He kept it simple for a fool like me. Love God, Love neighbor as self.

"There is no Heresy in this. I may be guilty of lesser charges, but not of being a heretic before this court and its people. And The Torah decrees it so."




How'd I do?

v/r

Q

 

[dauer]

"I learned very well. I can not be tried by you, for my beliefs nor the expression of my beliefs, according to your own laws, for they forbid it!

Are you a ger(sojourner, stranger, resident alien) in eretz yisrael? If so then you can be tried by your mitzvot.

Perhaps you consider my belief a form of idolatry. But you dare attempt to hold me to the same standards as you? I am not you, for I never accepted the comandmants at Sinai. I did not even know them. How then would I be expected to keep the 613 Mitzvot of the Torah,

If you are a Jew by birth or conversion, you are held to the 613. If you are not a Jew by birth or conversion, you are held by the 7, and are familiar with them because you are a ger and know what is expected of you in this land.

In addition, are not the Noahic commandments applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws?

There is discussion of the 7 in the Talmud. (OOC: this is where the historicity of this trial becomes an issue. If the Jews had control of the land, the 7 mitzvot apply as binding law for all gerim in eretz yisrael. If Jews do not have control of the land, they may be binding but not in a legal way. There are some modern authorities who consider Christians Noahides. There are other modern authorities who do not consider Christians Noahides. The very early Christians were Jews and Christianity was a Jewish Heresy and idolatry. Christianity is always considered idolatry for a Jew, even if not for a Christian.)

"No, I merely listened to the voice of a Rabbi, and took comfort, that a priest would smile upon me and encourage me (a stranger) to look out for others, and simply accept Him, and trust that He would teach me to be free from my muted cell.

A rabbi is not a priest, unless you are referring to the teaching from the prophet that all Jews are priests. The kohanim recieve their position by birth. A rabbi recieves his position based on learning and piety.

He gave me two laws to follow, and encouraged me to keep trying, even when I stumbled. He kept it simple for a fool like me. Love God, Love neighbor as self.

What proof do you have that this man was a rabbi? If he was a rabbi he would be included in our extensive records, especially if he said something important. Even people we despise are included in Talmud, like Elisha ben Abuyah who we call Acher(Other[an apostate]).

I would suggest that this man was no rabbi(had not recieved smicha) that he made errors occasionally in quoting scripture, and that in Hebrew his followers most likely called him moreh and not rabbi. He even referred to Pharisees as sitting in the seat of Moses and did not include himself, which shows that he did not acknowledge having recieved smicha.

By practicing avodah zerah you may be attracting Jews to avodah zerah. Follow your mitzvot when in Eretz Yisrael.

"There is no Heresy in this. I may be guilty of lesser charges, but not of being a heretic before this court and its people. And The Torah decrees it so."

If you are not a Jew you are not a heretic. If you are a Jew, then you a heretic. If you are not a Jew and we are in Eretz Yisrael when Jews have control of Eretz Yisrael, you are still bound to behave in accordance with your mitzvot. If the above conditions were not met, this trial would not be taking place.

How'd I do?

Well, I think you were missing some information and that in the event Jews did not have control of Israel and you were a non-Jewish idolator, you wouldn't have been tried in the first place. In the event Jews did not have control of Israel, I don't think anyone would be tried. The death penalty can only be sentenced by the Sanhedrin(high court) in the room of hewn stone at the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). And there were many counterbalances to make such a penalty unlikely. But given the circumstances, the lack of historicity to this trial, you definitely gave it a much more unique (and informed) attempt than most everyone else, and that is perhaps the best way to go at it.

Dauer

 

[Basstian]

Dauer your reffering to the Christian Bible as Rubish is a little over the top

Now you say I am not a Jew according to your perspective fine you have your right to believe this.
However Being taught By Jesus to Have faith in the almighty God who he Claimed was His Father The God of Noah the God of Abraham etc etc
Being taught to Keep the Comandments That there is No other God and to avoid Idoltary.
Your Statement

BTW: You don't need to be a jew, according to judaism, to get any sort of special privelage. The righeous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. And the Talmud says a righteous gentile who follows his commandments is greater than the high priest. (those commandments pertain to the beliefs and practices of Noah, of Enoch, of Abraham before God selected him, etc.)

Funny this is The place spiritually Jesus was leading us to that like Abraham we could hvae a close and personal relationship with God.

WE are now on Trial for trying to acomplish this.
Frankly I do know Jews who claim to be athiests but yet say they are Jewish
makes no sence to me but I do.

I think we can safely say that Using the Christian Bible and The Jewish Text you so often refer to will never bring an end to this trial.

You yourself Know there are many Jews that even in the day and age this mock trial was set in accepted Jesus and his teachings today there are still many Christian Jews (Followers of Jesus whos Bloodline is that of judiasm)

The count (approx. numbers), in 1998 showed over 250,000 Jews identifying themselves as being "Hebrew-Christians".
Now it seems to me that while it is not a HUGE number I wouldnt want to say that everyone of them is an uneducated Jew who was mislead By us evil Idolators.

I would call on any to join in on this thread so as to get a better understanding on how they came to their choice.

But whether they do or not Gives me a clear picture that you my friend donot speak for ever Jews as I dont speak For every Christian.
See I believe the Jewish nation still holds a place in the long term plan and prophecy
Some Christians believe unless a Jew choose Christ they are lost ????
Its a hard thing all these doctrines and prophecy decphiring what they all mean.
I know one thing for sure Jesus Loves you and your people whether I stand convicted
on this trial I will go down saying this.
I have enjoyed this and built a great admiration for your Knowledge of your holy word.

I hope you live a life Blessed Buy the God of your Fathers
I will Pray His Son bless you also.

 

[Dor]

Dauer your reffering to the Christian Bible as Rubish is a little over the top

Is that not exactly the way the Jewish who were trying people of that day for Heresy/idoltery would have refered to it. I took it as simple role playing.

I have stayed out of this post but I must admit Dauer has definately shown a great knowledge of his religion and his religious books and just shows me I knew much less about it than I thought. Thank You.

 

[Bandit]

i thought there was over 700 laws to the Jew.

In the church I grew up in they counted around 900 laws (total) when you add the ones from the OT and the NT into the gentile.

 

[Quahom1]

Are you a ger(sojourner, stranger, resident alien) in eretz yisrael? If so then you can be tried by your mitzvot.



If you are a Jew by birth or conversion, you are held to the 613. If you are not a Jew by birth or conversion, you are held by the 7, and are familiar with them because you are a ger and know what is expected of you in this land.



There is discussion of the 7 in the Talmud. (OOC: this is where the historicity of this trial becomes an issue. If the Jews had control of the land, the 7 mitzvot apply as binding law for all gerim in eretz yisrael. If Jews do not have control of the land, they may be binding but not in a legal way. There are some modern authorities who consider Christians Noahides. There are other modern authorities who do not consider Christians Noahides. The very early Christians were Jews and Christianity was a Jewish Heresy and idolatry. Christianity is always considered idolatry for a Jew, even if not for a Christian.)



A rabbi is not a priest, unless you are referring to the teaching from the prophet that all Jews are priests. The kohanim recieve their position by birth. A rabbi recieves his position based on learning and piety.



What proof do you have that this man was a rabbi? If he was a rabbi he would be included in our extensive records, especially if he said something important. Even people we despise are included in Talmud, like Elisha ben Abuyah who we call Acher(Other[an apostate]).

I would suggest that this man was no rabbi(had not recieved smicha) that he made errors occasionally in quoting scripture, and that in Hebrew his followers most likely called him moreh and not rabbi. He even referred to Pharisees as sitting in the seat of Moses and did not include himself, which shows that he did not acknowledge having recieved smicha.

By practicing avodah zerah you may be attracting Jews to avodah zerah. Follow your mitzvot when in Eretz Yisrael.



If you are not a Jew you are not a heretic. If you are a Jew, then you a heretic. If you are not a Jew and we are in Eretz Yisrael when Jews have control of Eretz Yisrael, you are still bound to behave in accordance with your mitzvot. If the above conditions were not met, this trial would not be taking place.




Well, I think you were missing some information and that in the event Jews did not have control of Israel and you were a non-Jewish idolator, you wouldn't have been tried in the first place. In the event Jews did not have control of Israel, I don't think anyone would be tried. The death penalty can only be sentenced by the Sanhedrin(high court) in the room of hewn stone at the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). And there were many counterbalances to make such a penalty unlikely. But given the circumstances, the lack of historicity to this trial, you definitely gave it a much more unique (and informed) attempt than most everyone else, and that is perhaps the best way to go at it.

Dauer

Why, thankyou Dauer

You just made my day!

I strongly suspect that eventually I would be convicted, but the apparent "fact" that I may have given the court pause to consider my plea, is a small but significant victory (strictly for argument's sake).

You remind me of the Chairman who runs the USO in Haifa, Israel (Gila is her name). She gave no quarter to those around her, but to us foreigners stationed there, hers was a quieter tone, almost paternal (motherly in this case). Her patience was long, and she always shushed away our mistakes by reminding us that we did not know any better (but the implication was, that in time we'd better learn...).

Oh, what was I doing in Haifa? Remodeling living quarters for widows with children, at the US government's expense, in the Chasidic quarter, and under the watchful but amused eyes of the local leaders.

I did learn much while assigned there.

v/r

Q