Life After Life

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But that is something else entirely from everlasting life.

To me it is the same. To me it reflects what being born again is also saying. I see it is all about the elimination of self. It is merging with creation as a whole.

Regards Tony

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

As at the time of death, the real and eternal self of man, his soul, abandons its physical garment to soar in the realms of God, we may compare the body to a vehicle which has been used for the journey through earthly life and no longer needed once the destination has been reached . . . I'd be glad to know everyone's idea on the subject.

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[RJM]

I would be interested as to what scriptures have you read?

The Bible (many times), the Quran, the I Ching, Tao te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, the Tarot and astrology, Crowley's Book of The Law, the Kaballah a bit, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, others I will remember...

 

[RJM]

Oahspe, Light on the Path, the Voice of the Silence, Gospel of Thomas and some other apocrypha, the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, the Autobiography of a Yogi and several other writings by Yogananda Paramahansa, Mary Baker Eddy: Science and Health, Rudolf Steiner: Knowledge of the Higher Worlds ... lots of other stuff, really

 

[RJM]

@Tone Bristow-Stagg
I really don't mean to sound so rude. I apologise. I just wish you would add an IMO now and again. I also feel you are not really interested in what others think, except as a vessel for your Baha'i teaching. The fact it involves so many words.

But I do apologize. You are free to post what you want. I will stand back and let others decide, comment, react, whatever. I do apologize for my abrasive tone. This website is mostly just a headache for me ...

 

[mrym]

We on the Western Left Hand Path prepare ourselves throughout our life so that when our physical self expires we can direct our isolate consciousness/psyche into the subjective universe we have prepared for ourselves to take the throne of.

That preparation for life after the physical death sounds very similar to what baha'is and most of the members of other religions do. That's interesting.

By the way, what is Western Left Hand Path? Had never even heard the name.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

That preparation for life after the physical death sounds very similar to what baha'is and most of the members of other religions do. That's interesting.

By the way, what is Western Left Hand Path? Had never even heard the name.

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[mrym]

Most other religions are Right Hand Path religions. A Right Hand Path is a path of union with some kind of Universal Reality (God/Absolute/Supreme Being etc.). When this union is completed the individual self is annihilated, and the individual Will becomes one with that alleged Divine order.

To absolve oneself self into the Univeral Reality/Objective Universe is antithetic to the Western Left Hand Path goals of Individuation and Self-Deification.


When broken down into its core foundation. The Western Left Hand Path is an antinomian process of externalizing your True Self. The way it works is that we have this ability to experience our True Self, our Full Potential Being, this can be referred to as our GodSelf. It is the perfected you and is your Psyche/Soul/Greater Self. What is referred to as Apotheosis on the Western Left Hand Path does not entail 'becoming' a god per se, it entails realizing one's Greater Self, and bringing this Self into your everyday life in order to become more than Human.

We don't have Divine texts, Messianic heroes, dogma, or an exclusive claim to truth, we are not outdated, harmful to the individual, harmful to society, an impediment to the progress of science or humanity, a source of immoral acts, or customs, or a political tool for social control.

Still sound like Baha'i?

Wow. That's wonderful and now as weird as it may sound, yes, it is even more similar to Baha'i now. Because in the baha'i we are taught that we cannot/won't unite with God; there are no unions as such. It is a process of self realization and discovering our potential plus reaching the presence of the Manifestation. We learn that "human being is a hidden mine of gems but lack of proper education has kept him away from what he has".
That was a very interesting info you shared with me. Thx a lot

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Wow. That's wonderful and now as weird as it may sound, yes, it is even more similar to Baha'i now. Because in the baha'i we are taught that we cannot/won't unite with God; there are no unions as such. It is a process of self realization and discovering our potential plus reaching the presence of the Manifestation. We learn that "human being is a hidden mine of gems but lack of proper education has kept him away from what he has".
That was a very interesting info you shared with me. Thx a lot

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[mrym]

My pleasure . . . but, just to be clear. We do not believe there is a Supreme Being/God/All

Ahhh ok I seeee now that's our difference. Still, I think we work towards "somehow" the same goal that is to "know thyself"
Interesting to know about your religion. Thank you.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Buddhism would be a notable exception to your rule. There is no notion of eternal life in Buddhism, rather, life, in any realm of existence, is characterized by being impermanent.



So someone experiencing hellfire in the next world would just have to imagine being in paradise, to "get there"?

What if someone in the next world imagines being back in this one, would they effectively be born into an existence in this world again?



I think the fact that our lifespans are limited is a defining feature of life in the first place. Eternity is a long time, things are bound to become petrified, or mechanically repetitive, and, well, deathly, over the course of an eternal existence.

As I wrote in another thread, I prefer the life-affirming religious views over the death-denying ones. Denial is a trap, in my experience.

Doesn't Buddhism -- or should I say, most schools of Buddhism, have a doctrine of reincarnation? Isn't that what the selection of the Dalai Lama is supposed to be about? Finding the person who has been reincarnated?

 

[Cino]

Doesn't Buddhism -- or should I say, most schools of Buddhism, have a doctrine of reincarnation? Isn't that what the selection of the Dalai Lama is supposed to be about? Finding the person who has been reincarnated?

They all have the doctrine of "no self", or "emptiness", as well: no indestructible, permanent, eternal essence or soul.

So the usual way to reconcile rebirth with no-self is to view "that which is reborn" as a process, rather than a soul. This process is the ongoing cause-and-effect chain of events, which in the West we packaged up in the word "karma".

Sometimes the image of a candle flame is used: One candle can light the next (your Dalai Lama example), so the process of combustion continues. But it could also light several... or get extinguished... the flame is not a thing, or an individual essence.

 

[TheLightWithin]

They all have the doctrine of "no self", or "emptiness", as well: no indestructible, permanent, eternal essence or soul.

So the usual way to reconcile rebirth with no-self is to view "that which is reborn" as a process, rather than a soul. This process is the ongoing cause-and-effect chain of events, which in the West we packaged up in the word "karma".

Sometimes the image of a candle flame is used: One candle can light the next (your Dalai Lama example), so the process of combustion continues. But it could also light several... or get extinguished... the flame is not a thing, or an individual essence.

So how does that work in practical terms, finding just the right individual who is meant to be the Dalai Lama?
Or, does it mean there could be several?
I'm remembering a documentary I saw about the tradition, where the monastery leaders would travel to see young children to see if they could identify the previous master's possessions for example.

 

[Cino]

So how does that work in practical terms, finding just the right individual who is meant to be the Dalai Lama?
Or, does it mean there could be several?
I'm remembering a documentary I saw about the tradition, where the monastery leaders would travel to see young children to see if they could identify the previous master's possessions for example.

Yeah, they seem to have a test battery, so to speak.

I think the belief is that the D.L. not only resists final awakening, Sammasambodhi, whereupon there would be no further births, but is also trained in ensuring that there is another birth, in the human realm, close by... for less adept people, such factors are beyond their capacity to influence.

I must note that I trained in a different school of Buddhism, which does not "do" this kind of reincarnation-dynasticism. So my comments on beliefs surrounding the DL should be taken with appropriate grains of salt.

 

[Thomas]

So how does that work in practical terms, finding just the right individual who is meant to be the Dalai Lama?
Or, does it mean there could be several?
I'm remembering a documentary I saw about the tradition, where the monastery leaders would travel to see young children to see if they could identify the previous master's possessions for example.

René Guénon wrote of Hindu doctrine in "The Multiple States of Being" that such states exist in succession from our perspective, but simultaneously from the viewpoint of a higher Buddha-nature ... succession, temporality, and so forth are conditions that apply to this particular state of being and not to all states ... The Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis said much the same thing ...

Henry Corbin, in his commentaries on the Sufi Ibn'Arabi spoke of the universe as existing not unlike the Dzogchen interpretation of the kayas in Tibetan Buddhism: a concurrent multidimensionality, that is all states exist simultaneously, and 'enlightenment' in many ways is perception not simply of one's own state but those other states ... dependent upon one's capacity to perceive these interwoven realms.

To paraphrase – enlightenment does not involve entering a higher realm and leaving the lower behind. Rather, one enters the higher realm from where one is, 'through the doorway of one’s own perception'.

All manifestation in the Sambogakaya and Nirmanakaya arises from the un-manifested emptiness of the Dharmakaya. The ongoing process of holding this state of multidimensionality is seen as liberatory in the Dzogchen perspective... Enlightenment does not mean 'leaving' to go to the Dharmakaya. Rather the dharmakaya exists concurrently and through the Sambogakaya and the Nirmanakaya. this same process of Gnosis and multidimensional integration in the “theophanic” prayer of Ibn ‘Arabī.

The Buddha is portrayed as the 'emanation body' (nirmanakaya) as he appears in this realm, and the contemplation of which leads to the sambhogakaya, the bliss or celestial body of the Buddha which again opens to the Dharmakaya.

So it's not the case of a child 'remembering' previous existences – rather it's an intangible knowing, mysterious and incomprehensible, a Buddha knows all other Buddhas because Buddha is One – the individual samsaric experiences of any number of Buddhas are known because Buddha transcends samsara and is not bound nor conditioned by the contingent passage of time ...

+++

With this in mind, contemplation of the Christian doctrine of kenosis 'self-emptying' states exactly the same thing, seen, as it were, from the other direction:
Jesus said: "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

"Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself (ekenōsen heauton), taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name... " ( Philippians 2:5-9 (NRSV)

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" (John 14:6) is saying I am the nirmanakaya, the sambhogakaya and the Dharmakaya.

+++

 

[TheLightWithin]

René Guénon wrote of Hindu doctrine in "The Multiple States of Being" that such states exist in succession from our perspective, but simultaneously from the viewpoint of a higher Buddha-nature ... succession, temporality, and so forth are conditions that apply to this particular state of being and not to all states ... The Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis said much the same thing ...

Henry Corbin, in his commentaries on the Sufi Ibn'Arabi spoke of the universe as existing not unlike the Dzogchen interpretation of the kayas in Tibetan Buddhism: a concurrent multidimensionality, that is all states exist simultaneously, and 'enlightenment' in many ways is perception not simply of one's own state but those other states ... dependent upon one's capacity to perceive these interwoven realms.

To paraphrase – enlightenment does not involve entering a higher realm and leaving the lower behind. Rather, one enters the higher realm from where one is, 'through the doorway of one’s own perception'.

All manifestation in the Sambogakaya and Nirmanakaya arises from the un-manifested emptiness of the Dharmakaya. The ongoing process of holding this state of multidimensionality is seen as liberatory in the Dzogchen perspective... Enlightenment does not mean 'leaving' to go to the Dharmakaya. Rather the dharmakaya exists concurrently and through the Sambogakaya and the Nirmanakaya. this same process of Gnosis and multidimensional integration in the “theophanic” prayer of Ibn ‘Arabī.

The Buddha is portrayed as the 'emanation body' (nirmanakaya) as he appears in this realm, and the contemplation of which leads to the sambhogakaya, the bliss or celestial body of the Buddha which again opens to the Dharmakaya.

So it's not the case of a child 'remembering' previous existences – rather it's an intangible knowing, mysterious and incomprehensible, a Buddha knows all other Buddhas because Buddha is One – the individual samsaric experiences of any number of Buddhas are known because Buddha transcends samsara and is not bound nor conditioned by the contingent passage of time ...

+++

With this in mind, contemplation of the Christian doctrine of kenosis 'self-emptying' states exactly the same thing, seen, as it were, from the other direction:
Jesus said: "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

"Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself (ekenōsen heauton), taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name... " ( Philippians 2:5-9 (NRSV)

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" (John 14:6) is saying I am the nirmanakaya, the sambhogakaya and the Dharmakaya.

+++

Interesting.
Though in practical terms it still takes the form of one young child being selected for the life of a monk and a career predetermined into becoming the leader.

 

[wil]

Interesting.
Though in practical terms it still takes the form of one young child being selected for the life of a monk and a career predetermined into becoming the leader.

Mind if I use this to start another tangential thread

 

[TheLightWithin]

As at the time of death, the real and eternal self of man, his soul, abandons its physical garment to soar in the realms of God, we may compare the body to a vehicle which has been used for the journey through earthly life and no longer needed once the destination has been reached.

Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 201

The Matter of death and life after death has always been interesting for people. whether we believe in the existance of some kind of eternal substance in us or not, we will think about what the "end" will look like.

The Baha'i religion, like all other religions, tells us that this worldly material life is just a means to get to that eternal one. it is not the end; it is just the begining.
There's a substance in us humans that will survive the death of the physical body. that substance called "human soul" is something that does not exist in lower realms like the realm of minerals or animals. that human soul is the cause of our free will and the power of thinking and the cause of all human inventions. With all those benefits that come with having a human soul also comes the matter of being judged by a higher consciousness for what we have done in our lives; whether we have gotten closer to Reality or have we stepped far from it.

While the concepts of heaven and hell are very much talked about and known among all the believers of different religions, the Baha'i religion gives a new definition to these ancient concepts. The main point to remember is this:

Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings.

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 519

So, we do not wait to go to a place called heaven where all things are good or go to a place called hell with burning fire and bioling water being poured on souls. Next world is the world of spirit, not the world of materiality, BUT imagination is also a spiritual thing. and the tourture of hell or the reward of heaven can very well look like burning fire or green gardens IF that is how we imagine them. the next world being spiritual means anything we imagine can appear in front of us at that very moment whereas the material reality of this world does not let that happen easily. Thus, while we do not reject the possibility of being in a frightening atmosphere or a beautiful one in the next world, we believe that the reality of those places is spiritual, not physical.
Another important factor about the baha'i concept of heaven and hell is:

Think ye of love and good fellowship as the delights of heaven, think ye of hostility and hatred as the torments of hell.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 244

In other words, interestingly, those ideas and behaviors and conducts that couse pain and war in this world are the same -symbolically speaking- hell fire that will burn us in the next world. We may believe that the reward and punishment of the next world is physical like this world, but no physical pain , as an example, can be as bad and as never ending as regret and sorrow.

Furthermore, whereas some religions believe in a physical resurrection after death, we do not. Life after death, as we believe and I mentioned, is all spiritual. though, after going there we will still be who we are here; we will have hands and foot and head and hair and everything because we'll have our ethereal bodies.

In addition to that, we believe that human progression is a never ending process. All humans are created to finally reach their full potential and find the Truth and be with Him. but it takes time for each of us differently. So, in the next world, we'll still progress, some slower, some faster, towards getting better and better. all roads lead to Him at the end.

So, these are the main points for the begining. I do not wish to make it too long and thus make it boring I'd be glad to know everyone's idea on the subject.

I'm trying to learn more about Baha'i.
Christianity and Judaism are the religions I know more about than others.
Is Baha'i more like Christianity, in the sense of being afterlife focused and belief focused?
Or more like Judaism and more focused on this-life and and on ethics and or religious practice?
Historically I realized Baha'i has the connection to Islam. I don't know Islam as thoroughly to ask a good comparison question there.

 

[Ahanu]

Is Baha'i more like Christianity, in the sense of being afterlife focused and belief focused?

There might be sects within Christianity that primarily focus on the afterlife and beliefs, but I think it would be unsuitable to characterize Christianity as a whole in this way.

 

[TheLightWithin]

There might be sects within Christianity that primarily focus on the afterlife and beliefs, but I think it would be unsuitable to characterize Christianity as a whole in this way.

It may seem simplistic, but I think a lot of Christianity has trended that way --especially in Evanglical circles-- there's the old saying about some preachers "being so heavenly minded they are no earthly good" and a lot of contemporary evangelists who are so hellish minded they are no earthly good -- much of the time those trying to evangelize emphasize the need to "believe" to "save one's soul" and the consequences if you don't.