There is no justice if atheism is true

RJM said:
@Aupmanyav

Where am I when I am dreaming? It is completely real to me, until I wake. What is the reality, and what is the dream? How do I know?
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You are very much here when you are dreaming (on your bed). Perhaps it is not real, I tend to know when I am dreaming, but go along the dream, knowing that it does me no harm. Generally it is when I am feeling cold, early morning. Waking up, I forget the dream after sometime.
Do you feel like that? I associate dreams with bodily discomfort (the brain wants to wake you up and attend to the discomfort), temperature or position.
Perhaps that is why upward of 40 degree lattitude you have Halloweens, and not India. :)
 
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I learn (get) a lot from dreams. A lot. Perhaps because I am open? No, I do not associate them with physical discomfort. If 'I' is just my body, then my body is on the bed -- but how do I know I'm not creating the body and that I am really the spiritual consciousness that weaves the body and the material world?

There's no way of knowing, except via the limited evidence of the natural material world limited by time& space. But consciousness and 'self' is more than that. It's like saying a book is true because the book says it is true. It's a self-referential loop?
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
What could you possibly study that would reveal to you that some kind of divine authority exists?
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Good question, although i am not an atheist, if there were something I had read or seen that would make me believe in an entity I have not seen it yet.

I like how you worded that thou, divine authority... I do believe what religionists call G!d and scientists refer to has the theory of everything, a math/physics/science principle which connects the macro to the micro we will both have our explanation of why and how, and one or both of us could be dissappointed!!

Lol, I would absolutely love to have some sort of proof...other than the laughs, camaraderie, and discussion, that is why I came here, I stay for the guiness showers
 
I believe in heaven as a consciousness, and we make choices with our actions, words and thoughts, by our perception, which puts ourcellves in heaven or hell...all a matter of perspective. I mean if you believe that G!d has it all handled and it is G!d's plan, then why would you perceive evil?

One kid complains the teaching is hard and the teacher mean, the other that they are the greatest teacher ever, and the kids sit side by side, one in heaven, one in hell.

If you can't find peace a d solace where you are at with the money you have odds are you won't find it anywhere else with more money.

I look for (some cherry pickers will say cherry pick) scripture thar helps me understand here and now, that moves my perception to bring my consciousness into a heavenly space rather than one of want or need or blame.

I believe the Bible (read religious texts) to be more about living in heaven on earth and not something you strive for after death.

I ain't a believer, but I do live a life that allows gates to be opened here, and I expect that translates (if there is another gate, my actions and thoughts will put me ahead in front of many sanctimonious Bible thumpers I know) I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them.

If there is a heaven and is justice, and they don't want me in...then I don't wanna be there!

(Hell someone already refused me a couple times)
 
God helps me also in the here-and-now, when I surrender ego. God may make my material life better,: but not at the cost of my soul. Of course God completely understands and knows (and weaves and permeates) the here-and-now. Christ is with me in a torture cell.
 
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Surrender to the Tao is the way of heaven
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
What do you mean by "moral righteousness"?
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That is the best answer you could have given.
Exactly....'What is the meaning of 'moral righteousness'.
I asked because I have absolutely no clue what 'moral means, exactly.

I think that words like moral, immoral and righteous are adaptable to fit with most folks' mindsets and actions.
 
wil said:
I believe in heaven as a consciousness, and we make choices with our actions, words and thoughts, by our perception, which puts ourcellves in heaven or hell...all a matter of perspective. I mean if you believe that G!d has it all handled and it is G!d's plan, then why would you perceive evil?

One kid complains the teaching is hard and the teacher mean, the other that they are the greatest teacher ever, and the kids sit side by side, one in heaven, one in hell.

If you can't find peace a d solace where you are at with the money you have odds are you won't find it anywhere else with more money.

I look for (some cherry pickers will say cherry pick) scripture thar helps me understand here and now, that moves my perception to bring my consciousness into a heavenly space rather than one of want or need or blame.

I believe the Bible (read religious texts) to be more about living in heaven on earth and not something you strive for after death.

I ain't a believer, but I do live a life that allows gates to be opened here, and I expect that translates (if there is another gate, my actions and thoughts will put me ahead in front of many sanctimonious Bible thumpers I know) I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them.

If there is a heaven and is justice, and they don't want me in...then I don't wanna be there!

(Hell someone already refused me a couple times)
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Yeah.
Making love to a loved partner or spouse........heaven.
Comfort after extreme agony.... heaven.
Playing with a loved pet....heaven.
A glass of water after great thirst....heaven.

That teacher, though. I don't know about that. The fat maths teacher (Manthorpe...long since deceased) didn't like NQ Denis, but he adored Baldry. Any time he caught (attention challenged) Denis playing with his compass he would send his favourite Baldry to get 'the pole', and then he would thrust Denis between his knees and beat with him the broken hockey stick which he kept for his less favorite pupils. Baldry and Denis were not experiencing the same teacher. Just Hell for Denis.

I feel slightly sad for the person who spends their entire life totally focused upon death.
 
Heaven has a different meaning in Chinese philosophy than the parochial Abrahamic afterlife 'good place'. It is the directing Yang force, which in combination with the yeilding yin force of earth, gives rise to nature
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
It wasn't an answer, it was a question. I can't reply unless I know how you are defining 'moral righteousness', but now I see that you weren't asking my opinion about the term you're asking for the definition of 'moral righteousness'.
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OK
'Amir Alzzalam said:
You also said:
"I have absolutely no clue what 'moral means, exactly."
Morality is the concern with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
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A definition which fits for us all, atheists, theists, agnostics and any others.
This thread addresses 'No justice if atheism is true' and given the above definition of 'morality' that proposal is busted. Imo
Anybody of sound mind can have an opinion about right and wrong even if those opinions vary.

'Amir Alzzalam said:
You said:
"I think that words like moral, immoral and righteous are adaptable to fit with most folks' mindsets and actions."
I would agree with you to an extent. There is the morality and ethics accepted by a society/culture that is expected of its citizens and then there is Plato's Eudaimonia concept which states we all inherently possess the ability to know Right from Wrong. Some choose to ignore their conscience, others are incapable of conscientious thinking.
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The very young, mentally disabled, terrified, and a few others can't really be judged.
 
There are obviously atheist which are more moral than some believers.

There are obviously atheists who are more just (to others) than some believers.

Take for example US prison population compare the percentage in prison vs the general population of various religions and note where atheists are on the list.

Pretty dang telling when it comes to law abiding, and justice don't ya think?

Feel free to provide the data for your country

RELIGIONPRISON POP.GENERAL POP.
Protestant28.7%44.0%
Catholic24.025.1
Muslim8.40.6
Native American3.10.1
Pagan2.00.1
Jewish1.71.2
Churches of Christ1.50.8
Buddhist1.00.5
Jehovah’s Witness0.70.8
Seventh Day Adventist0.30.4
Mormon0.31.4
Eastern Orthodox0.20.4
Apostolic0.20.4
Hindu0.10.3
Atheist0.10.7
Pentecostal0.12.4
Sikh0.11.1
 
wil said:
Pretty dang telling when it comes to law abiding, and justice don't ya think?
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I'm not sure what the statistics you provide show us, apart from the obvious. i.e. the stated religion of offenders

It is complex .. disadvantaged communities often have higher rates of offending.
Can we put that down to their religion?
I would say no, not directly.

You want to make it all about atheists and their perceived morality, whereas I
refer to Divine justice in an afterlife. Two different things.
 
wil said:
There are obviously atheist which are more moral than some believers.

There are obviously atheists who are more just (to others) than some believers.

Take for example US prison population compare the percentage in prison vs the general population of various religions and note where atheists are on the list.

Pretty dang telling when it comes to law abiding, and justice don't ya think?

Feel free to provide the data for your country

RELIGIONPRISON POP.GENERAL POP.
Protestant28.7%44.0%
Catholic24.025.1
Muslim8.40.6
Native American3.10.1
Pagan2.00.1
Jewish1.71.2
Churches of Christ1.50.8
Buddhist1.00.5
Jehovah’s Witness0.70.8
Seventh Day Adventist0.30.4
Mormon0.31.4
Eastern Orthodox0.20.4
Apostolic0.20.4
Hindu0.10.3
Atheist0.10.7
Pentecostal0.12.4
Sikh0.11.1
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I don't think that prison stats offer an accurate picture, wil, because there are benefits in claiming to follow a religion in prison.
 
muhammad_isa said:
You want to make it all about atheists and their perceived morality, whereas I
refer to Divine justice in an afterlife. Two different things.
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But 'divine justice' in afterlife is just crank.
Honest, decent, moral men and women being judged because they loved and partnered with their own sex? Divine judgement?

That's just one example of how warped the idea is. I think that it has already been established that all and any people can have positive feelings and actions about honesty, morality and decency in life, regardless of any beliefs.
 
badger said:
But 'divine justice' in afterlife is just crank.
Honest, decent, moral men and women being judged because they loved and partnered with their own sex? Divine judgement?
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You saying so, does not make it true.
The point about Divine justice, is that it doesn't exist if atheism is true [no life after death].
How it actually works in practice is debatable. Nobody knows for sure.

What we do know, is that people won't be wronged .. there will be no pettiness.
It is not just a question of "us v them" .. and God knows best .. He knows all.
 
wil said:
Feel free to provide the data for your country
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Sorry, as a secular country, our Constitution does not allow us to calculate things on religious basis. Such a survey will be unconstitutional.
However, I am surprised that in your country (US? Don't know for sure), the Muslim % in prisons is 14 times their % in the population.
0.6 Muslims in jail for 8.4 crimes!
 
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muhammad_isa said:
You saying so, does not make it true.
The point about Divine justice, is that it doesn't exist if atheism is true [no life after death].
How it actually works in practice is debatable. Nobody knows for sure.
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No no....... Divine Justice clearly isn't true, and that surely releases millions of people to live the lives that they want and need to live.

muhammad_isa said:
What we do know, is that people won't be wronged .. there will be no pettiness.
It is not just a question of "us v them" .. and God knows best .. He knows all.
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You don't know any such thing.
Pettiness? You must tell us all which laws are petty and which laws are serious, and how did you receive all this information?
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
People not in their Right of Mind don't count, they cannot make moral/ethical judgments for themselves.
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That more or less, is what I wrote.

'Amir Alzzalam said:
I have been saying that Justice has nothing to do with Atheism, what is your point here?
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My point here is that theists on this thread agree that anybody can make moral judgements for themselves, regardless of theism or atheism.
Ergo, Morality (and lawfulness/lawlessness)...... has nothing to do with atheism.
 
Sadly I fear prison populations follow a trend, and the significant trend (this has been documented), is that there's a higher population of people 'not like us' and which corresponds to the greatest racist perceived notion of threat.

So young black males offer a disproportionately high number of those in prison in the US and the UK, which only proves to white racists that black people have lower moral values, are more inclined to crime, etc., etc. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy because the state in some ways reflects the underlying tensions.

Like when we drive locally, it's always a black driver we see pulled over. When I walk along the busy highroad, the times I smell cannabis wafting from cars. Anecdotal evidence that significant cocaine residue is found in all UK major league football clubs, yet the supporters are by majority white (and remarkably racist). Yet is always black people who get stopped.

Look at the stats taking a white male as the average, then the disproportionately stiffer sentence handed out to women, people of colour, etc.

Factor in the staggeringly high ratio of ex-forces inmates – men who obviously needed, and failed to get, adequate trauma understanding and support.

The study that highlighted the trend in the UK was a long-term study done over generations by an Indian PhD, wish I could find it.

His finding also evidenced that since the emergence of Islamic militancy/terrorism, the percentage Muslim population in prison is also on the rise, suggesting the 'Muslim' is drawing close to the 'Black Man' in terms of the incipient fears of those who sit in judgement upon them.

So for me, prison populations tell more about the justice system than the moral values (or lack thereof) of the residents in such institutions.
 
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