There is no justice if atheism is true

badger said:
But Jesus...... Christianity says that Jesus taught a judgement after death, but I don't think Jesus did, nor that he believed in it.
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Funny that .. a lot of Protestants believe in heaven but disregard hell.
There are numerous Bible verses that say otherwise .. that Jesus taught hell is a part of reality.
 
Leveller said:
Well we are now on page 25. So far we have failed to define justice. Secondly, we have failed to reach a consensus on what might exist should atheism not be correct.
Maybe it's time to pause and rethink.
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I agree. It has run it's course. Problem is whenever someone tries to raise the level of discussion, the haters drag it down again.
badger said:
I take food and drink with Christians often, certainly each week, and a Catholic also sits at the same table.
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Care to expand?
muhammad_isa said:
There are numerous Bible verses that say otherwise .. that Jesus taught hell is a part of reality.
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When they don't like something that Jesus said, they just cherry pick that bit out: "No, Jesus didn't say that" or he meant the opposite of what he actually said, etc ...

Nobody has to believe it. But a person can't pretend it's not there

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muhammad_isa said:
Funny that .. a lot of Protestants believe in heaven but disregard hell.
There are numerous Bible verses that say otherwise .. that Jesus taught hell is a part of reality.
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Yeah, but that is a bit strange because there isn't a 'hell' for the Jews.

Anyway, your point about people bringing suffering upon themselves through various kinds of self guilt, now that's what I would call 'common ground' because it can apply to mostly anybody but the psychotic, and I wouldn't expect religion to damn psychotics because they are disabled, ill etc.

So I liked that proposal of yours.
 
badger said:
I think that the Jehovah's Witnesses agree with that tenet, mostly. Salvation by actions.
But many Christians believe in 'Salvation by faith alone'.

But some of us think that this is all rubbish, Tony..... yet many non-theists do want a safer, fairer, kindlier world here and now. So we support laws and justice wherever possible.
Our bodies are full of cells, and bacteria, etc....... if one of those turns wrong then we kill ourselves from within, but those killing cells are not evil, they are just cells.
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That is how God's Message also works, it is the elixir the body of humanity needs, but if we refuse to take the elixir! We'll the bacteria have a field day and that is all part of the plan and the ultimate healing.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
That is how God's Message also works, it is the elixir the body of humanity needs, but if we refuse to take the elixir! We'll the bacteria have a field day and that is all part of the plan and the ultimate healing.

Regards Tony
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Fair enough ..
And I like Muhammad's proposal that we bring suffering upon ourselves through our deeds. That can apply to theists and non theists all.
 
badger said:
And I like Muhammad's proposal that we bring suffering upon ourselves through our deeds. That can apply to theists and non theists all.
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Yes @badger , @muhammad_isa 's proposal makes sense for all. In Buddhism to cease bad behaviour is not just for the benefit of other beings but inevitably is in our own best interest.
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
How do you know what a divine authority has mandated or that a divine authority even exists?
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..through study.
I don't agree with extremes.
I feel that the OT is not totally reliable, as it contains ancient texts.
Perhaps that is because I discovered a more recent "version" i.e. Qur'an

The NT is a canon chosen by a particular group of "Christians", in which I find the synoptic Gospels most useful.
They are concerned about the ministry of Jesus and his sayings.

..and then we have 100's of thousands of hadith, which have less authority than the Qur'an,
but can be enlightening, nevertheless.
That's the basics for me,

For example, I don't take the cutting off hands to extreme. It is mentioned in the Qur'an,
so fully accept it. However, I consider such punishment as a last resort, for a "career criminal"
who is of sound mind. I also believe in capital punishment on the same basis.

It would be hoped that such punishment would deter people from serious crime, but I appreciate there is a danger of corruption, where the state can misuse its power.
Most Muslims I come across seem to think that democracy, at least in its western form, is not Islamic.
I disagree. I believe in democracy. I don't agree with presidents who insist on holding govt, despite their subjects disapproval.
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
We are all judged by the same standards, no one escapes. How else can Justice be served?

In this world it is supposed to happen, but does not because of human choices, biases and predudices.

Regards Tony
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If ya read various religious scripture....many sign up to be judged differently according to their beliefs
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
That is how God's Message also works, it is the elixir the body of humanity needs, but if we refuse to take the elixir! We'll the bacteria have a field day and that is all part of the plan and the ultimate healing.
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Heard the same from 'snake-oil sellers'. In India they say "Hit it on a stone, it will ring like iron" (Patthar par maro, tun ki awaz hogi).

iu

RJM said:
But a person can't pretend it's not there
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Hell! Where?
Leveller said:
So far we have failed to define justice. Secondly, we have failed to reach a consensus on what might exist should atheism not be correct.
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Abandon the project. Atheism is correct. What is not correct is theism, IMHO. No evidence.
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
Both and neither, it depends on what side of the fence I'm on and what I believe is morally right and fair in a specific situation.
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Ah.... yes. Righteous decisions can jump from side to side, according to who is trying to make them.

I need to bombard you with yet another question, what in your opinion is 'moral righteousness'?
Maybe that word can fit mostly anybody's decisions?
 
wil said:
Evil is pretty much determined by the individual

To some S&M is evil to others it is pleasurable, to some pleasure is evil, to others slaughtering and eating meat.

The line wiggles with the more folks you ask
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It's only useful in one single sentence, imo.

Evil be who evil thinks

That is writ large above Judges' seats in our Courts, shown in latin. Some of 'em need to read it more often, methinks.
 
wil said:
Brothers and Sisters, the universe works in mysterious ways, it as if my minister was reading this thread and addressed various points in this thread with various quotes from
Differing sources, enjoy!
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I skipped through to the message where they ask for tithes, well, they mentioned tithes, something to do with continuing their work.
 
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wil said:
It's not just knowing Christians that warrants an award, it is tolerating them...lol
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Ha ha! :)
I attend Christian 'snack and chat' meetings quite often, I discover new info about hj at these all the time, last brilliant piece learned only a few days back.

But I was enjoying tea and biscuit at one (a little while ago) when a lady in a group pointed at me and spoke out, 'What's he doing here? I know he's not a Christian!' .....she wouldn't let it go, until her friends told her that they'd founded the meeting place to draw pagans like me in. Luv it. :D
 
Aupmanyav said:
Hell! Where?
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The point is Jesus said what he said. Hell is said to be permanent separation from God; it isn't a place but a state, because there is no time or space beyond nature. Whatever it is -- and nobody has to believe a word if it -- it cannot be denied that Jesus Christ spoke of it.

Jesus said what he said. He spoke in parables that have many levels, like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Nobody has to believe the New Testament, but it is not correct to cherry-pick and manipulate to try to make the NT say the exact opposite of what it does say -- especially the words of Jesus.

There are a million theories about Jesus, but the NT cannot be used as evidence to support them. Evidence must come from somewhere else. From sources other than the NT itself. The NT says what it says. There is no possibility of misunderstanding.

I am responding out of courtesy to a direct question from you @Aupmanyav but I don't see any reason to keep repeating the same points from now on
 
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@Aupmanyav

Where am I when I am dreaming? It is completely real to me, until I wake. What is the reality, and what is the dream? How do I know?
 
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