Try the Trinity.

[muhammad_isa]

It is not up to Jews and Muslims to decide on what the Trinity is or should be..

Ummm .. Jews and Muslims do not believe that God is a trinity..

I have not seen any Muslim or Jew that has an understanding of the Trinity.
For instance, Muslims are of mind that the Trinity is Allah, Mary and baby Jesus.

Yeah, if you say so.
I was raised as a Christian, so "this Muslim" knows better.

And as for the Jews,
Well, it is interesting that the first Christians believed in the Divinity of Jesus and they became Christians.

I do not think so .. that is what you believe.
There is no proof that the disciples believed Jesus is God.
It all boils down to this "Arian business".
Trinitarian Roman Emperors burned all texts that earlier Christian scholars, such as Origen,
had written.
Arians did not believe that Jesus is God, and Roman Empire declared them heretics.
Furthermore, the Arians were not few in number .. they were persecuted and slaughtered.
..not very Christian like, I would say.

All I want to show is that, to make a claim that Muslims and Jews can not accept the Trinity, is simply not true.

Yes it is, unless they denounce their faith.
..and a Jew or Muslim would not carry on praying in their temple or mosque, in that case.
..and I do not believe that the disciples would have carried on praying in the temple in Jerusalem either.
i.e. if they believed Jesus is God

It is faith 101 .. and why would they need to pray to God in the temple, if they could pray to Jesus???
No ! Jesus prayed to the Father [God], and so did the disciples.

Our Father, whom art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name...

 

[OupaPiet]

There are many points you have raised that have been explained In detail. I see the issue you currently face is that you are connecting God to the physical world as an intrinsic part of your understanding of God.

God is is not contained and has never been contained within creation. God is above all attributes.

Regards Tony

Half way true.
The Trinity did create physical substances.
He also entered into Creation when He created it all. later on He came to humans and spoke to them in person. He even lived amongst them in a tabernacle and temple (or shall I say His "Glory" lived among us)

Eventually He decided to take his Mind, and to become a Human.
He even aged as a human, and died like a human.

This is the Triune God.
Not some distant spirit that is so far removed from us that we never could fathom God.
No, He realy made MAN to be His friend, not some robotic toy to play with that can be set on earth to be placed on trial after life.
It is up to us to accept Him, or to deny his Love and Friendship.
That way we condemn ourself.

 

[OupaPiet]

God has sent Christ in many Names and will bring all those Names under the One fold, under the One Shepherd, God. That is the promise contained in the Bible and many other Scriptures.

Nope, I can not Find Jesus Christ in any other book than in the Bible.

I did however find imposers.
I have read many books and could fins people attempting to place Jesus Christ in their religion, but I also found that their attempts are just one huge lie to attain power, money, and women.

 

[OupaPiet]

That is what you believe.
I believe that Jesus is "the son of God", because he was sent by God as Messiah.
The OT includes several "sons of God" in a similar manner.
I do not subscribe to the author of "Gospel of John's" opinion, where he philosophises in his prologue.
It is not the words of Jesus.

John knew Jesus in person.
John was boiled in oil for believing that Jesus was the divine Son of God.
He survived the ordeal.

The Gospel of John dates from before 90 AD, well in the mind of disciples and witnesses who knew Jesus themselves.
The ololdest papyri fragments of John is dated at 80 AD.

Even the Didache which dates from 80 AD mentions John's words and gives a full description of the Yrinity of God, and the Divinity of the Messiah and Holy Ghost.

What evidence do you have to show me that you have the right not to "subscribe" to Johns' "Prologue" and that it was not Jesus' words?
He knew Jesus, saw him die on the cross, saw him alive risen from the dead, and saw him ascend into heaven.

Again, I would like to know what authority you have to discredit John?
Greetings

 

[OupaPiet]

"OupaPiet said:
In this regard, YHWH is not a God that created Man to test and trial him, to send him to hell, or to leave this created man in death.."

.nothing to do with trinity .. another topic.

On the contrary.
It has everything to do with God.
God created Man to be His Friend.
and after Satan removed Man from God by corrupting our existence, It took a Trinity, the Word of God, to become a MAN, to die like us.
Due to God being unable to die, it was the corrupt flesh of Jesus that died, and it was replaced with an immortal body, one which we will receive.

Therefore, the Trinity is Crucial to the story of salvation.
Any religion that tells a story that the great god in the sky created humans to test them, and to send them to hell to be tortured, have only one characteristic.
They hate the idea that Jesus is God.
They hate the idea that God loves the world so much, that He sent His Word, made him a man, the only begotten Son, to save us from eternal damnation.

If anyone denies this fact, they are condemning their own souls.

 

[OupaPiet]

Yeah, if you say so.
I was raised as a Christian, so "this Muslim" knows better.

OK, So why dont you tell me what Islam thinks the Trinity consists of?

I think this will clarify everything about the differences between the Quran and the Bible.

 

[Cino]

Adam and Eve were created to live eternally! God warned them that if they should disobey Him, they will die!

Interesting, but how do you reconcile Gen 3:22 with your understanding?

Disclaimer: I'm not Christian, and am not trying to poke holes into what you are saying, not having any stakes in this discussion. Asking to understand what you are saying.

 

[Cino]

OK, So why dont you tell me what Islam thinks the Trinity consists of?

That's like asking you what you think the Invisible Pink Unicorn's eyelashes look like. (Presuming you don't believe in her)

 

[Thomas]

This diagram is the explanation.

But I don't think it does. The diagram is an explanation of prophecy – that the Divine is the source of the words on the tongue of a prophet – but it does not really address the issue of Trtinity as such. It assumes Trinity fits the modle which, as I have demonstrated before, it doesn't.

 

[Thomas]

There is no proof that the disciples believed Jesus is God.

To be reasonable, there's more to suggest they did, than they didn't.

It all boils down to this "Arian business".
Trinitarian Roman Emperors burned all texts that earlier Christian scholars, such as Origen,

LOL, for you, old chum, everything boils down to poor old Arius.

Arius was about the dvinity of Christ, intrinsic to, but not about, the Trinity, so another topic.

Note to @OupaPiet – our brother @muhammad_isa has a simple view of Arius' philosophy, which from what I've read of Arius, misses the point. He chooses the popular version, and dismisses the evidence when it goes against him.

 

[Thomas]

Again, note to @OupaPiet –

Orthodox Judaism does not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity. Neither does Islam. Following Islam, neither do the Baha'i.

Theoretically, we should be able to co-exist. Where friction arises is when any party tells the other party they're wrong.

What non-Theists do not seem to accept is their arguments against the Trinity generally fall because they misrepresent the doctrine in the first place.

I don't argue to prove the Trinity right, so much as to point out the errors in their argument about either what we believe, or the historical process as to how we got there.

@muhammad_isa likes to neatly blame 'Trinitarian Roman Emperors' when the evidence clearly shows that emperors had very little say when it came to theological disputes.

Constantine had less to do with the Council of Nicaea (325) than generally assumed. He was advised by his theologian, Hosius of Cordoba.

He also ordered that 50 bibles be prepared. The project was never completed.

Later emperors tried to swing the argument one way of the other, depending on their inclination – Arius one day, Nicaea the next – but the Church as such would not be silenced.

Even in the 7th century – long after the Trinity was settled – Emperor Heraclitus published his Ecthesis in 638 (probably drafted by Patriarch Sergius I of Constantinople In consultation with Pope Honorius of Rome) to close down a Christological dispute – but this was ignored.

Emperor Constans II issued an Imperial edict – the Typos – in 647/48 (again, possibly drafted by Patriarch Paul of Constantinople) in an attempt to forbid further theological debate. Pope St. Martin of Rome refused to accept the decree and was kidnapped and exiled. St. Maximus the Confessor was arrested and tortured and died as a result of the injuries inflicted upon him.

The sad history of schism in the church, Orthodox, Coptic, etc., testifies to the fact that Emperors, be they Arian or Trinitarian, were powerless to dictate the Faith of the Church.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But I don't think it does. The diagram is an explanation of prophecy – that the Divine is the source of the words on the tongue of a prophet – but it does not really address the issue of Trtinity as such. It assumes Trinity fits the modle which, as I have demonstrated before, it doesn't.

It explains the God we can know very well IMHO, which is naught but the Messengers.

Muhammad offered this in the Quran 5:73

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

Also Baha'u'llah has explained it in great detail.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not correct, it is wrong. Yet that is all I will now offer, there is no audience here that wishes to explore alternative explanations.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Nope, I can not Find Jesus Christ in any other book than in the Bible.

I see from your reply, that is because one has not really looked for Christ in other Messengers, I would offer, one has become a Lover of the Lamp and not the Light.

Your replies also offer you are not up to any reasonable discussion on this topic, so I wish you well and all the best.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

He also entered into Creation when He created it all. later on He came to humans and spoke to them in person.

This is blasphemous and not at all based in reason and logic.

Does a painter enter the painting?

Does a woodcarver enter the carvings?

Do inventors enter their inventions?

Or do the Attributes of these peoples become known in the works they created!

The tools of the artists and craft people aid them in their creations. The Spirit flows through the tools.

From God the Spirit flows through the Manifestations who are the tools used for this creation.

That is a logical and valid explanation, based in reason and logic.

Regards

 

[Thomas]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not correct, it is wrong. Yet that is all I will now offer, there is no audience here that wishes to explore alternative explanations.

And as I said, I explored the Baha'i alternative but found it wanting, giving my reasoning. If you want to address that, then OK, but until then ...

As I say, the analogy offered says more about prophecy than Trinity.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Not some distant spirit that is so far removed from us that we never could fathom God.
No, He realy made MAN to be His friend, not some robotic toy to play with that can be set on earth to be placed on trial after life.

That is a childish retort, which is not based on anything offered to you.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And as I said, I explored the Baha'i alternative but found it wanting, giving my reasoning. If you want to address that, then OK, but until then ...

As I say, the analogy offered says more about prophecy than Trinity.

There is the Holy Spirit.
There are the Messengers, who told us that
There is only One God.

That is not prophecy, that is the God we can know, it is inclusive of all God given Faiths.

Then there is Humanity.

All 4 are needed to know and Love God.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Orthodox Judaism does not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity. Neither does Islam. Following Islam, neither do the Baha'i.

Theoretically, we should be able to co-exist. Where friction arises is when any party tells the other party they're wrong..

Ho, ho, you're not wrong !
..and neither am I.

Almighty God exists .. we both supplicate to "the Father", do we not?
Why supplicate to Jesus, when he taught us the Lord's prayer?

Why would God send a succession of men to warn mankind, warning them not to make graven images,
and that He was One .. and then decide to send "Himself", causing all this confusion?

There used to be a statue of Zeus [ Baal ] in the temple in Jerusalem .. it seems that
Christians have replaced it, with a statue of Jesus .. I see many such statues in the "Christian church".

I love Jesus as I love Muhammad, peace be with them..
They dedicated their lives to teach about the One God, and worshiped daily.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..our brother @muhammad_isa has a simple view of Arius' philosophy..

..except that Arius was one man ..
It cannot be denied that Trinitarian Emperors declared war against their brothers in faith.
They made the doctrine of "Jesus is God" to be a tenet of faith.

That would exclude the disciples and other Jews who believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah.
It makes no sense that Jesus and his disciples would be attending the temple in Jerusalem,
and teaching that God had come to them in person, and that they should worship Him.

The temple had been destroyed .. along with the shema, in effect.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What evidence do you have to show me that you have the right not to "subscribe" to Johns' "Prologue" and that it was not Jesus' words?
He knew Jesus, saw him die on the cross, saw him alive risen from the dead, and saw him ascend into heaven.

..scholars are not unanimous in believing that the Gospel wss wriiten by a disciple..
..neither does the author claim Jesus was reported to have said those words in the prologue.