Religion of love?

[muhammad_isa]

The concept of blaspheming in itself... when one makes anything so sacred that a person who doesn't believe as you is automatically characterized by their words seems ludicrous.

Mmm .. blasphemy laws have often been "hijacked" by various people and creeds.

The thing is, that it is possible to be an atheist, without making a noise about it.
Those who make a noise about it, usually have an agenda of destroying a society that has
its values rooted in a belief system.

Similarly, it is possible to have "unusual" sexual preferences .. but those that make a noise
about it want to destroy THOSE values.

In other words, what a majority might consider evil-doing, is being challenged by a minority.
..so many societies have laws to protect their social downfall.

These days, the West in particular, have chosen/ or been forced to abandon their cultural roots,
and are heading into dangerous territory, with society breaking down.
Some politicians even famously claim that there IS no such thing as society!

 

[RabbiO]

How do you want them to treat you?

The way they want to be treated? Or the way you wish to be treated? What they think is right? Or what you think is right?

Why do we not treat our neighbors the way they wish to be treated?

I think you know the answers to your questions. You’re too savy not to.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm reading your posts because I'm open to your opinion which is based on a completely different education and which finally lead you to your position, and I even think to understand how you came to it. But even if you think that there is nothing behind our faith in God because there is no God, I would like to invite you to read. Surprise: As a Muslim, as a first reading, I recommend you Isaiah, Jeremiah, Qohelet (Ecclesiaste) and the Gospel according to Luke from the Bible, becauseI think it gives you a better access than directly reading the Quran without any knowledge of the background.

Thanks for that Talib-al-kalim. I have read some of what you mention, the Gospels and the Qur'an. I understand (to a certain extent) the Abrahamic view point and the Christian, Islamic, Shia, Bahai, Ahmadiyya, Ismaili, Dawoodi take on it. I found no problem in understanding Qur'an and the hadiths, and the possible reasons why Allah dictated these verses to Prophet Mohammad (Sallalahu aleyhi wasallam).

 

[Aupmanyav]

The thing is, that it is possible to be an atheist, without making a noise about it.
Those who make a noise about it, usually have an agenda of destroying a society that has
its values rooted in a belief system.

.. so many societies have laws to protect their social downfall.

These days, the West in particular, have chosen/ or been forced to abandon their cultural roots,
and are heading into dangerous territory, with society breaking down.
Some politicians even famously claim that there IS no such thing as society!

Oh, only theists should make noise. Wrong belief systems bring trouble to themselves and to others.
Nice. Kill the heretic.
Yeah, societies have different cultural values.
Whether the society does not like a change or likes it, both should come democratically.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Whether the society does not like a change or likes it, both should come democratically.

Agreed upon.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

This statement is not uncommon in zealous discussion... the perceived offense and religious label used instead of atheist varies...but we have heard it all.

The concept of blaspheming in itself... when one makes anything so sacred that a person who doesn't believe as you is automatically characterized by their words seems ludicrous.

I don't expect people of other or no faith to observe what is sacred in my religion. But I insist in a respectful way of expressing dissent.
@Aupmanyav has answered respectfully to my post, so it's ok for me.
I don't actually understand what you want to say with your last sentence - do you say that I am ludicrous or that I make others ludicrous - I would reject both.

 

[wil]

I don't actually understand what you want to say with your last sentence - do you say that I am ludicrous or that I make others ludicrous - I would reject both.

We have freedom of expression where I live. The govt has provided some boundaries which get tested on the regular.

If you choose to add more boundaries within your home or place of worship on what I say, write, draw, drink or eat beyond those restrictions...I would tend to abide or leave ... same goes for this forum

But outside in public space or my private space I'll play by their rules...expecting otherwise, is ludicrous imo

 

[moralorel]

This is not a rant against you....but a.contemplation of the statement.

How do you want them to treat you?

The way they want to be treated? Or the way you wish to be treated? What they think is right? Or what you think is right?

Why do we not treat our neighbors the way they wish to be treated?

I am honest, open, straightforward, polite, and patient with my neighbors. I try to be there for them whenever I can. As I get to know my neighbors, I get to know how they want to be treated. So if a neighbor just wants to be left alone, then I leave them alone. If a neighbor wants to be social, then I try to be social with them. I default to how I want to be treated and then adjust to what I eventually find they desire for treatment. Does that make sense? I have a different relationship with every neighbor. For example, I had a neighbor who went on vacation and forgot to hold his mail. I know that I can just grab his mail and hold it for him. He is happy with that. But other neighbors would be very upset if I did such a thing. I adjust to the neighbor.

 

[wil]

As I get to know my neighbors, I get to know how they want to be treated

Exactly!

 

[TheLightWithin]

The thing is, that it is possible to be an atheist, without making a noise about it.

It's possible to have a lot of points of view, including religious, without expressing it.
Is there any reason people SHOULD "not make a noise about it" ? I mean maybe... make your case.
Some religions, by their own self report, feel they are obligated to "make a noise about it" and get other people to convert.

Those who make a noise about it, usually have an agenda of destroying a society that has
its values rooted in a belief system.

What makes you think people, for example atheists, necessarily have an "agenda" of "destroying" anything? How much do you actually know about other peoples' motives and thought content? Do you read minds? It's a huge distortion to say someone who just happens to be outspoken about their beliefs necessarily has an "agenda of destroying" anything, when in fact they may, from their point of view, be trying to lift what they feel and experience as a yoke of oppression - outdated norms, other peoples' beliefs, etc.

Similarly, it is possible to have "unusual" sexual preferences .. but those that make a noise
about it want to destroy THOSE values.

In other words, what a majority might consider evil-doing, is being challenged by a minority.

Should I assume you are referring to LGBTQ+ people? Who can be discriminated against, abused, assaulted, even killed, for their "unusual" "preference" due to .... "values" ??
This of course is heading into political territory...

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's a huge distortion to say someone who just happens to be outspoken about their beliefs necessarily has an "agenda of destroying" anything, when in fact they may, from their point of view, be trying to lift what they feel and experience as a yoke of oppression - outdated norms, other peoples' beliefs, etc.

Same thing..
Marriage has become "an accessory" rather than a religious institution.
That is no accident. It is a purposeful lobbying of those that wish(ed) to destroy it.

..and that was my point. If blasphemy is trivialised in society, society begins
to disintegrate. It is not that G-d is "offended" by what we may say .. G-d is not a person
in any case .. G-d teaches us that which causes our society to blossom, and ward off evil.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Same thing..

??? What is the same thing?

Marriage has become "an accessory" rather than a religious institution.

What do you mean by "accessory" in this context? Like accessory to a crime? I don't - I don't think that's what you mean but I realize I'm not sure what you mean on this whole topic really, I don't want to jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what you think and believe, or put words in your mouth...

That is no accident.

I don't get what you mean. I don't see how you get from a to b - i'm not even sure what your a and b are - your basic assumptions

It is a purposeful lobbying of those that wish(ed) to destroy it.

Still not sure what you mean - I'm having to rely on what I remember having read or heard about people complaining about changes in marriage laws and customs and try to infer what you might be referring to.

I think... I think .... you might be referring to things like, um, maybe liberalization of divorce laws? Or women having their own legal status, their own ability to legally own property - or to not BE property? Or passing of same sex marriage laws or - -- well I think you might mean something that might be related to that? And that you also consider these changes in marriage laws and customs to be promoted out of malicious motives?
But you didn't say so in so many words - ??

Mmmm.... no. I think if I am at all on target about what you are referring to, I will say this: What I do know about the changes in marriage laws and customs in various countries in modern times comes from, as I understand it, an effort at reform and correction.
For example, for more equality under the law for all adults - look up coverture if you haven't lately
To consider people to be malicious (i.e "it's no accident it is a purposeful lobbying of those that wish to destroy it" - your words)
(Whose lobby? Who are "those"? Why do you think you know their motives? Why do you assume malicious motives? Why imply changes are destruction rather than improvements? Evolution? Rather than positive motives and positive changes?)

Hmm.... Hmmm.........naah.... uh, I cannot do much more with this I am afraid...

Partly because I feel like I'm trying to figure out what you mean

Partly because I do not know what it is you are in favor of, if anything - like what is your preferred outcome on this question? Whatever the question really is?

And partly because this could overlap with political issues, which are not an option on the forum at this time.

 

[Faithfulservant]

That was quite an emotional response. Im wondering if the fact that him being muslim has colored your opinion? I have a similar opinion as a Christian that believes marriage is an institution created by God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't get what you mean..

Well, why has marriage changed from its definition of the union between a man and a woman?
How would that be an accident?

..passing of same sex marriage laws..

Mmm .. that would have been unheard of until the late 20th. century.
Is that because our ancestors were less moral or inferior, do you think?

..you also consider these changes in marriage laws and customs to be promoted out of malicious motives?

There are several reasons for it, I would say. The exodus of rural communities to urban areas.
The decrease in religious faith .. political lobbying by minority groups etc.

Why imply changes are destruction rather than improvements?

..because I can see the eventual result of such social change. The disintegration of
the family, and the insecurities of subsequent generations.

..but my original comment was about the ills of blasphemy.
The educated (should) know better .. not uttering profanities to each other daily, for example.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Mmm .. that would have been unheard of until the late 20th. century.
Is that because our ancestors were less moral or inferior, do you think?

Less tolerant and understanding of same sex relationships, in most societies, without any doubt

..but my original comment was about the ills of blasphemy.
The educated (should) know better .. not uttering profanities to each other daily, for example.

Depends a lot on the stressors or culture of the job.
I mean in many, many professional settings people uttering profanities to one another daily would be unthinkable.
But in the military or law enforcement, if I understand correctly, it can be rather common.
Also on some worksites where hard physical labor is done.
Something about the stressors and culture of the particular work and workplace.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But in the military or law enforcement, if I understand correctly, it can be rather common.
Also on some worksites where hard physical labor is done.
Something about the stressors and culture of the particular work and workplace.

I don't think so .. it reflects a person's social status, and educational background.
It's vulgar, and reminds me of immature youths trying to impress one another.

 

[JP Bradt]

I feel strongly that blasphemy is a right, and should never be a crime.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I feel strongly that blasphemy is a right, and should never be a crime.

In the sense that freedom of speech is a right... however, freedom of speech is not an absolute, and many kinds of harassment and abuse, or so called "fighting words" and slander and libel, can be against the law. Depending on how blasphemy is defined, there could be nuanced discussion about whether there are times that belligerent use of words that are considered blasphemous by some religions, maybe even in some geographic spaces or something, would be considered the same way libel, slander, or harassment and abuse, or "fighting words" can have legal ramifications.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I don't think so .. it reflects a person's social status, and educational background.
It's vulgar, and reminds me of immature youths trying to impress one another.

Well, yes and no. Social class is certainly a component.
When I was growing up, we moved to a community where kids my age (I was 10 or 11) were swearing constantly and looked upon me as rather frail and naive because I didn't. I may have looked shocked when they started swearing, but unlike what they thought, it was absolutely not because I had never heard a swear word or anything. Far from it. But in my family, swearing was not encouraged by kids, first of all, and although the adults DID swear, oh you better believe they did, they did NOT swear nonstop and indiscriminately. In fact, the adults in my immediate family at least only swore when they were very, VERY angry. So if a kid my age started swearing out of the blue, of course I looked at them funny. I thought they were both ill behaved and suddenly enraged. I was certainly subject to some peer pressure there.

It was only later over the years that I learned from talking to people about the subcultures of certain jobs and their take on it from their own experiences.

As an adult I do swear and grumble in private about frustrations when things go really wrong in the house. I don't swear in public. Sometimes my clients swear and apologize, I tell them if they need to swear to express their emotions they can, as long as they are not swearing AT me it's okay.

 

[TheLightWithin]

That was quite an emotional response.

Due to the emoji?
Emoji are for emotions by definition, sure, but it's also a stylistic choice.
Emoji are so adorably cute. The aesthetic and comical applications are endless.
I don't use them as much in this forum as I do in some others due to our combined efforts at a generally serious tone.