Atonement in religions

Makes sense, @wil.

What passes for AI nowadays is really just a mechanism for finding the next word we most want to see.

When I was little, we called this "Markov Chains" but enthusiasts assure me that these AI models are really very good markov chains, incomparable to the ones we used to play around with.

Whatever.
 
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RJM said:
Do you believe in continual reincarnation back into this world?
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That is a very good question. I have long wondered where these imposed planetary limits come from. I myself, as a believer in reincarnation/rebirth. accept that there may well be an interplanetary and interdimensional aspect to it. The smaller viewpoint though may be partly justified. If you drop something into a stream, it will eventually become caught in the weeds. Quite likely those weeds nearest to it. Perhaps the same is true of souls and what catches them.
 
wil said:
So this is an ai experiment of sorts.

Idk what the ai researched to come to its comclusions....but it appears the information available ans acceptable to anyone (i) or anything (ai) determines the conclusion...

Doh!
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Cino said:
Makes sense, @wil.

What passes for AI nowadays is really just a mechanism for finding the next word we most want to see.

When I was little, we called this "Markov Chains" but enthusiasts assure me that these AI models are really very good markov chains, incomparable to the ones we used to play around with.

Whatever.
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I have just posted a video about ChatGPT in the science section:

So How Does ChatGPT really work?

This seems to be a good layman's intro? 15 minutes
www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org
 
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Leveller said:
That is a very good question. I have long wondered where these imposed planetary limits come from. I myself, as a believer in reincarnation/rebirth. accept that there may well be an interplanetary and interdimensional aspect to it. The smaller viewpoint though may be partly justified. If you drop something into a stream, it will eventually become caught in the weeds. Quite likely those weeds nearest to it. Perhaps the same is true of souls and what catches them.
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Yes. I think there's a problem with the principle of continual reincarnation upon this world. But I accept the principle of 'rebirth' into different states and worlds and dimensions, which may sometimes involve a rebirth upon this world, but perhaps as the exception rather than the rule?
 
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Jews observe a holy day that is literally the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. It involves fasting of food and water. By denying yourself, you become closer to God.
 
I became curious and looked up theories of atonement in Mormonism. Mormonism is quite different from classical Christianity.
Even classical Christianity has multiple theories of atonement, which I don't fully understand and never found explained in any church I attended.
Substitutionary atonement, Christus Victor, Moral Example, Ransom Theory, and there are others.
In LDS theology, the atonement is looked at differently. Apparently they see the Garden of Gethsemane more prominently than the crucifixion. They also seem to have an idea of conditional vs unconditional atonement and salvation related to works.
I don't have a very deep understanding of it yet. I've read a bit about Mormons, but never thought to pursue this particular question.
 
RJM said:
I believe that sacrifice is giving everything over to God. It is the surrendering to God of what is most valuable to us in the material world. It is putting everything into God's hands. It was the sacrifice of a valuable animal, or in the case of Abraham -- even his own most beloved son.

Sacrifice was never about the blood, or the death.* It was about giving everything to God, to trust God to take over completely. That is faith -- In all religions it is about the choice between God and the world?
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I suppose I am best described as an agnostic. Sometimes I feel there is a god, often I don't. I can have several such contradictions in a single day. However, I felt a jolt of recognition in what @RJM wrote. I know guilt. I have never killed a person, never beat a woman. Nonetheless, when I was younger, I was cruel and disruptive, especially to those that I loved. That is a guilt that haunts me on a daily basis. I can as a result look "atonement" in the eye and take what is coming. I am not really bothered whether it be Karmic or judgement. I am frightened that it is all nothing.
 
Leveller said:
I am not really bothered whether it be Karmic or judgement. I am frightened that it is all nothing.
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We had elementary school teachers who put up gold stars or red dots, who wrote notes on our conduct and talking in class...Who told us it was all going down on our permanent record.

And Sunday school teachers who told us about heaven and hell.and St. Michael at the pearly gates checking the permanent record to see where we end up.

And then of course there is Santa claus...keeping his naughty and nice list and giving presents or coal based on the balance.

Fables and myths are full of selfsame judgemental allegories and parables designed to keep us on the straight and narrow beating into us this (fictitious?) list!

But is it?
Leveller said:
Sometimes I feel there is a god, often I don't. I can have several such contradictions in a single day.
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G!d and the list are in that same category for me.

I believe the list is real....but it is kept by us, and evaluated by our conscience and memory multiple times per day or maybe even minute. Our thoughts on it put us in heaven or hell ...permanently...forever our thoughts, memories, morality are evaluating past thoughts, words, responses and actions (the permanent record) and either instilling doubt, satisfaction, joy, guilt...based on our perspective, paradigm and attitude.

The result of that will build on the past like a snowball running down the hill...we want to change the size and direction of that which we are creating we need to change our thoughts words responses and actions...

We can incrementally tilt the scales of our self imposed permanent list and the resultant arrows and sticks or we can change our perspective adjust the paradigm and our understanding to make sweeping adjustments (find a savior or religion that we can align and use that crutch of acceptance or confession absolution and penance) to flip the scales quickly.

As usual...stream of consciousness response in this moment letting my fingers do the talking so I can read it and see what I am thinking.
 
wil said:
G!d and the list are in that same category for me.
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Yes, I suppose that is what I meant, in part, by Karmic or judgement. If you look at legal systems, they were originally one crime, one punishment. Over time they have developed and become more complex. Mitigating circumstances are considered. Social and psychological reports are considered. I would imagine that Karma, should it exist, is just an incredibly more complex version. Equally, I feel, an all-knowing god would be the same. In other words no real difference.
 
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Mans law says stop at the red light.

If you don't you pay the findme or go to jail.

God's law (to me) is physics in this regard.

Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

CAR WRECK, death, dismemberment or damaged vehicles.

I see religions as essentially the beginnings of man's laws...written down rules...evoking a higher power to judge...but written to avoid the hand of G!d (physics)
 
wil said:
We had elementary school teachers who put up gold stars or red dots, who wrote notes on our conduct and talking in class...Who told us it was all going down on our permanent record.

And Sunday school teachers who told us about heaven and hell.and St. Michael at the pearly gates checking the permanent record to see where we end up.

And then of course there is Santa claus...keeping his naughty and nice list and giving presents or coal based on the balance.

Fables and myths are full of selfsame judgemental allegories and parables designed to keep us on the straight and narrow beating into us this (fictitious?) list!

But is it?
G!d and the list are in that same category for me.

I believe the list is real....but it is kept by us, and evaluated by our conscience and memory multiple times per day or maybe even minute. Our thoughts on it put us in heaven or hell ...permanently...forever our thoughts, memories, morality are evaluating past thoughts, words, responses and actions (the permanent record) and either instilling doubt, satisfaction, joy, guilt...based on our perspective, paradigm and attitude.

The result of that will build on the past like a snowball running down the hill...we want to change the size and direction of that which we are creating we need to change our thoughts words responses and actions...

We can incrementally tilt the scales of our self imposed permanent list and the resultant arrows and sticks or we can change our perspective adjust the paradigm and our understanding to make sweeping adjustments (find a savior or religion that we can align and use that crutch of acceptance or confession absolution and penance) to flip the scales quickly.

As usual...stream of consciousness response in this moment letting my fingers do the talking so I can read it and see what I am thinking.
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I thought it was St Peter at the Pearly Gates?
I only know what I heard or read elsewhere though, I wasn't raised in the tradition.
I've heard of the Askashic Records, a sort of universal archive if I'm not mistaken
en.wikipedia.org

Akashic records - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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TheLightWithin said:
I thought it was St Peter at the Pearly Gates?
I only know what I heard or read elsewhere though, I wasn't raised in the tradition.
I've heard of the Askashic Records, a sort of universal archive if I'm not mistaken
en.wikipedia.org

Akashic records - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Lol...no clue...this uneducated lout shoots from the hip and is tolerated for his repeated faux pas, but not the mess next to his recliner in the old farts lounge (I know I will clean it up later)
 
wil said:
Lol...no clue...this uneducated lout shoots from the hip and is tolerated for his repeated faux pas, but not the mess next to his recliner in the old farts lounge (I know I will clean it up later)
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:oops:
:oops:o_O🤨
 
TheLightWithin said:
I thought it was St Peter at the Pearly Gates?
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Yep ... cue Catlick joke:

Jesus goes to the gates and says to St Peter: "The place is rammed, we're shoulder to shoulder her. Close the gates until I've had a word with my Dad about making more room."

Three days later Jesus finds Peter, and He's not happy. "I thought I told you to shut the gates? It's worse than ever in there!"
Peter throws his hands up in despair. "I did! It's your mother, she keeps opening them behind my back!"
 
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