Some random thoughts

turtles.

Turtles are vicious
The contemplations derived from observing a contained eco system such as this are amazing...umpteen ways to compare to society, man-made belief systems, how we all support each other, how reality combats external "needs", learning to work with what is and what can be done...

It's turtles....all the way down...
 
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To get closer to your track ... have you looked at symbol from a religious perspective? as more than a sign, more than a glyph.
 
To get closer to your track ... have you looked at symbol from a religious perspective? as more than a sign, more than a glyph.
Yes...however, one needs to ever be mindful that the symbol is not the thing. There is always the chance of venerating that which is not.

Menus and meals, fingers pointing and the Moon.
 
Indeed.

Just wondering with regard to the idea of the union between the symbol and the symbolised.

Menus and meals, fingers and moons, yes ... but the thing symbolised being present in and through the symbol ... that kind of thing.
 
I think that issue – the severance of nature and the supernatural – is particularly a western one. a minor one until the fervid imaginings of the later middle ages; added to by a general anti-nature stance of the (so-called) Enlightenment, which saw nature as a wanton female in need of taming under the new sciences brought to the fore by men, and then added to (I am informed) largely in the North American denominations.
I do think that is one thing I politely disagree with most of the Protestants of my acquaintance, is the part in Genesis telling Adam he would have "dominion" over nature becoming interpreted as "do as I please" callous use of nature....I always thought, from the first time I read that, "dominion" should be interpreted or understood more like "steward," or "caretaker." Something like that.

Genesis 1:26-31 The first creation of humans, male and female

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26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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This is the first creation of humans, Adam without the article.

The Seventh Day, G!d "rested," and declared the Sabbath.

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The eighth day, G!d created ha-Adam, with the article. Genesis 2:7-8:

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
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G!d spent the preceding 6 verses of chapter two building the Garden of Eden, before creating the man we typically understand as the man Adam. There are two Adams in Genesis. Some human teaching suggest possibly even more, and genetically we already know Neandertal shares genes with some modern humans, one theory is that they mated out of existence.

After Caine was banished, he went to dwell in the land of Nod, and there he took a wife.

Genesis 4:16-17

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16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived,...
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...and the verse goes on to list the descendants of Cain who was outcast.

So the whole "dominion" thing is for the "pre-"Adam.
 
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Indeed.

Just wondering with regard to the idea of the union between the symbol and the symbolised.

Menus and meals, fingers and moons, yes ... but the thing symbolised being present in and through the symbol ... that kind of thing.
Personally...I am wary of such. Not in a doubting manner.


"A golem is an animated, anthropomorphic being in Jewish folklore, which is entirely created from inanimate matter, usually clay or mud."

Different application of the same principle. I'm pretty sure it isn't encouraged in the Bible...you know, all the smiting in the Old Testament of the idol worshippers. I have to look at the Bible as a whole. I've got a pretty good idea what's in there, I have read (the vast majority of) the Bible. I have to consolidate...Jesus taught from the Old Testament. Paul had to teach of Jesus from the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is pretty adamant, idol worshipping is seriously frowned on. I say this as a friend, we will disagree on this matter.

Besides, there's no need.

Each person has it in them to "connect" with the IS. I recommend being in the correct spirit when you do, but you personally have it in you to connect.

Let every step be a prayer. I like that, found it today, a quote I pulled from Black Elk. Let every step be a prayer.


Black Elk was an Oglala Lakota medicine man who survived the Wounded Knee Massacre, and died in 1950.
 
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I do think that is one thing I politely disagree with ... is the part in Genesis telling Adam he would have "dominion" over nature becoming interpreted as "do as I please" callous use of nature....I always thought, from the first time I read that, "dominion" should be interpreted or understood more like "steward," or "caretaker." Something like that.
I agree. I just looked at Strong's and the connotations are pretty negative ... to me the proper exercise of such terms as 'dominion', 'kingship' etc., is for the good of all.

There's that rather silly romantic scene in John Boorman's Excaliber when Arthur rides out and Spring returns to the land ... all very sentimental, but it does rather accord to the idea that it's all of a piece ...

 
Personally...I am wary of such. Not in a doubting manner.
OK

"A golem is an animated, anthropomorphic being in Jewish folklore, which is entirely created from inanimate matter, usually clay or mud."
Different application of the same principle.
Not sure it is quite the same principle, rather I'd say it's an inversion of the principle – a creature animated by magic?

Scripture uses 'golem' in a positive sense – Psalm 139:16: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (golem)... " refers to the embryo in the womb.

... all the smiting in the Old Testament of the idol worshippers.
Yeah, I don't associate symbols with idol worship, either.


The Old Testament is pretty adamant, idol worshipping is seriously frowned on. I say this as a friend, we will disagree on this matter.
I don't think so ... I don't disagree with anything you've said.

I see symbol in a 'different light', as it were.
 
I agree. I just looked at Strong's and the connotations are pretty negative ... to me the proper exercise of such terms as 'dominion', 'kingship' etc., is for the good of all.

There's that rather silly romantic scene in John Boorman's Excaliber when Arthur rides out and Spring returns to the land ... all very sentimental, but it does rather accord to the idea that it's all of a piece ...
I think I get what you're saying, but isn't it rather "dramatic effect?"

Humans have a tendency, and my personal guess is it is a part of our mental filing system, but we look for shortcuts and associations. The best and deepest memories are those that are reinforced with repetition and/or multiple associations...why musicians with Alzheimers can still skillfully play - a different kind/type/location of memory (muscle memory).

Looking to shoehorn dates to force them to fit a "human" paradigm in order to reinforce the memory is essentially schooling. We call it education, indoctrination, even propaganda.

Do I think G!d works, or can, in direct accord with natural rhythms? Sure. I might even agree with "likely." But then this line of reasoning gets carried away into "seeking signs," which we are "strongly advised" (as in words to the wise) NOT to seek signs. Numerology, Astrology, divination, Tarot, WeeGee...ever tipped tables? We're not supposed to play with such things.

It is one thing to be aware of possibilities, it is another to go looking to play the odds...(gambling reference).
 
Not sure it is quite the same principle, rather I'd say it's an inversion of the principle – a creature animated by magic?
Same energies at play.

Consider:
Places become imbued with energies. For example, a Church. Or a battlefield. What is a haunting?

Scripture uses 'golem' in a positive sense – Psalm 139:16: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (golem)... " refers to the embryo in the womb.
Yeah...it means a good deal more in the Kabbala...but I think you probably know that.
Yeah, I don't associate symbols with idol worship, either.
Good...but again, as I mentioned before, there are many people thru the generations who have invested in, venerated, worshipped "symbols." They take the symbol for the thing. The Church is heavily invested in promoting this, and I sincerely think it is latent from the Roman period, as Christianity was Romanized at least in the West. There are other cultures that do the same / similar, and likely for the same reason.

It is a conscious choice I've made. I'm not dead set against all images, I do not walk my faithwalk by manmade images. I do not want to invest that kind of energy into symbols. Does that make sense?
I don't think so ... I don't disagree with anything you've said.

I see symbol in a 'different light', as it were.
That why I keep emphasizing the "do." It's not about what you believe - if you believe strongly and you sincerely follow the wisdom path laid before you (who laid it there is irrelevant), you will conduct your affairs in a "moral / ethical" manner. All of the major faiths teach the same core messages...Love G!d with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength...and like unto it, Love your neighbor as yourself. Even "atheist" religion such as Buddhism would only argue this by way of words, not behaviour.

The Jewish as I understand is to Do Good for the sake of Doing Good.
 
I got about halfway through this video last night. I was not aware that Black Elk has been (nominated)? for sainthood in the Catholic Church. A fascinating man, took part in Custer's Last Stand as a kid, witnessed the aftermath of Wounded Knee, and became a Catholic under tutelage of the Jesuits. I think his conversion was significantly political in order to help his people survive, but the biography hints that he respected the Jesuits, but didn't think much of whites in general, particularly the gummint.

OK, so it looks like the link to the video is blocked, the title is:

Walking the Good Red Road- Nicholas Black Elk’s Journey to Sainthood​

 
I missed the Perseid meteor shower, it was last night, not tonight. Oy! I was busy watching the Saturday night spooky movie on tv.
I watched for the meteors all week and saw nothing. But when it was supposed to pick up, we had storms. Go figure!
 
It just don't matter what you think you know. What do you do with what you think you know?

Do you build others up, or tear others down?

Do you defend yourself, or play doormat?
 
I don't get the big deal.

I offered now twice, directly, to two outspoken (ahem) members, one of which is since no longer a member. Not even peripheral takers, which I find somewhat curious in itself, though a few have been under the weather.

Why the hesitation to discuss the word "love" in the Bible, in particular the Greek New Testament?

It is a perfectly normal subject to question, and surely every child has asked their parent?

Brotherly love, phileo (by memory, so if off I know not by much). Philadelphia - City of Brotherly Love...

What my daddy called "common human decency." Treating your neighbor as you wish to be treated.

This was never a call to surrender. The Desiderata, second sentence, says, " As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons." Allow me to highlight - without surrender. I have the G!d given right to defend myself and my family. I don't want to have to, but I am not above doing so. That is Biblical to my way of understanding.

David against Goliath, (more like one of the scared sh!tless soldiers that ran into the Giant first, before David). I can only live my life, but my life is mine to be lived. G!d is in all, and G!d is all. Wakan Tanka is at the center of the Universe, and the center is everywhere.

I'm hesitating to post the tree, but the skinny is that the top is G!d, and the bottom is me. There is a straight shot path, I'm not terribly concerned about the sideroads. Men get lost on the sideroads.
 
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