The common thread

Mankind has a tendency to corrupt the scriptures by adding their own interpretations.
Agreed, this happens all the time. The scriptures are not hard to understand, trying to wrap our mind around some of the things that God does is a different story.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For aby Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He ais before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Col 1:15–17

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but aemptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Php 2:5–8.


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The common thread on this site when it comes to discussion about religions is the same as always. It always comes down to what people want to believe. Every Abrahamic Religion tries to say that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures (the Bible if you like) have all been corrupted and can not be relied on.
Well that might be what you believe, but you're wrong.

For Roman Catholics, the various Orthodox Patriarchies, and others, believe the Bible is infallible on matters of faith and morals.

Dei Verbum, a Constitutional document of Vatican II states: "... it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text)."

Yet there is no factual proof to support this.
Well there are text differences between the oldest copies of the New Testament, so that is actual proof of, at the very least, error in copying.

Having said that, there is no evidence of difference such that the essential message of Scripture has been altered or corrupted, so in arguing specifically on the corruption of Scripture, you're right.

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I can see you want to make a point, but you do rather obscure it and undermine yourself with erroneous or ill-informed claims ...
 
Best leave them out of it, as I'm not sure you understand what they believe.
Well that determines which catholic I talk to, much like Christians. I have research all religions and cults over the last 39 years. I never just look at one source, I look at many and try to throw the lies out. The Catholic (universal) church started out one way and lost it's footing. Now the are buying into all the lies to keep their denomination alive, just like many Protestant denominations. Never have bought into the lie of annulment! Nor calling anyone "father" since Jesus says not to do that. But what do I know.
 
Well there are text differences between the oldest copies of the New Testament, so that is actual proof of, at the very least, error in copying.
Minor at best! Why don't you show me where there are errors that will make any difference to the meaning.
 
The scriptures are not hard to understand, trying to wrap our mind around some of the things that God does is a different story.
From my reading of them, I see a vast majority of meaning is sealed to us and we need the Messengers to interpret them for us, or the rare few that have been gifted greater insight into the Spirit behind the 'Word' are able to offer insight. Thus I see for 99.999999% of humanity, the scriptures are very difficult to interpret.

This Biblical passage tells us why there is good and evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Our own actions, be they Christ like, or Christ less, define the good or the evil.

Regards Tony
 
From my reading of them, I see a vast majority of meaning is sealed to us and we need the Messengers to interpret them for us, or the rare few that have been gifted greater insight into the Spirit behind the 'Word' are able to offer insight. Thus I see for 99.999999% of humanity, the scriptures are very difficult to interpret.
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 16:13.

A true believer of Christ has the Holy Spirit residing in them. They don't need anyone to teach them. The first time I read through the Bible (KJV) I was sitting in a jail cell for 90 days. Probably 90 of what it said at that time was not difficult to understand. A few of Jesus' parables, maybe. There are no hidden messages in the text, they read straight forward. The biggest problem is understanding that the Scriptures portray the father, the son, (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit to have attributes of God. Something we will never understand, but that does not mean we can't accept it.

17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 17:17–21.
 
A true believer of Christ has the Holy Spirit residing in them. They don't need anyone to teach them.
I agree, but I do wonder what the Holy Spirit teaches.

For me, the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is beyond words. It's a knowing, not a learning. It's not a layer of knowledge. The Holy Spirit for me enkindles divine love – faith, hope and love – but not knowledge as such. It's beyond knowledge.

Probably 90 of what it said at that time was not difficult to understand. A few of Jesus' parables, maybe.
OK.

There are no hidden messages in the text, they read straight forward.
I'm not sure anyone can say that definitively, though – if the message is hidden, then you'll not see it, and won't know it's there?

Having said that, what needs to be said is there in plain sight – love your neighbour – and we don't dispute that, and all that's needed is there for all to see and read ... but that does not mean there are not other layers and ways of understanding.

And I would argue against anyone who says you need to know the 'hidden secrets' of Scripture to be a Christian.

But consider John:6:54–57:
"Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

Does this mean cannibalism? How can anyone eat his flesh and drink his blood?

The early Christians were accused of just that – rumour abounded that the Rite of the Eucharist was human sacrifice.

So the question is twofold:
1: Does Jesus quite literally mean what he says?
2: If he does not mean it literally, then surely everything he says can be explained away?

As John records, they were hard words (v 60), and he lost many followers that day (v 66).

The biggest problem is understanding that the Scriptures portray the father, the son, (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit to have attributes of God.
Well, they are God, they don't just have the attributes of God ... but I'm assuming you mean that – that they are God.

Hang around here long enough and you'll clock that I'm into the mystical side of Christianity and Scripture ... for example, the rending of the veil of the temple, that happened at the moment of Christ's death on the cross. All three synoptic gospels record it ... but without comment.

What does it mean? Actually, it means a very great deal.

Do you need to know it, to be a Christian? No.

As Jesus said, and Paul said, and has been echoed down the centuries, "All you need is love."

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If you have accepted Christ, then that's all you need. It's a done deal, as it were.

But the Church exists in the world, and the fact that you believe is not in itself a reason for other people to believe. But the Church has a mission in the world, and to fulfil that mission means explaining herself.

It's not enough to say 'just read the bible'. Madmen and murderers have read the Bible and found justification for their actions. Just because someone reads something does not mean they understand it. Just because it's written does not make them believe it.

You can't just bash people over the head with the Bible and insist that they read and believe it.

Is the Church always successful? LOL, No. Sometimes we make a bloody mess of things. Sometimes we're frankly awful.

But yet that same Church produces saints down the centuries, even in her worst moments – people whom, as is recoded in some places, shine forth with then light of the Holy Spirit.

And that Church has done her best to preserve and protect, and transmit the Word.

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In terms of our previous clashes here, I think there's teaching by example, and teaching by shouting at people. You tend to do the latter, a bit, and it rather puts people off listening.

As for Catholics believing lies, that's another matter ...
 
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I agree, but I do wonder what the Holy Spirit teaches.

For me, the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is beyond words. It's a knowing, not a learning. It's not a layer of knowledge. The Holy Spirit for me enkindles divine love – faith, hope and love – but not knowledge as such. It's beyond knowledge
John 14:26 (ESV)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
 
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 16:13.

A true believer of Christ has the Holy Spirit residing in them. They don't need anyone to teach them. The first time I read through the Bible (KJV) I was sitting in a jail cell for 90 days. Probably 90 of what it said at that time was not difficult to understand. A few of Jesus' parables, maybe. There are no hidden messages in the text, they read straight forward. The biggest problem is understanding that the Scriptures portray the father, the son, (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit to have attributes of God. Something we will never understand, but that does not mean we can't accept it.

17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 17:17–21.
I see the Spirit of Truth mentioned in that passage is Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), but is also applicable to Muhammad, the Bab

I see one has to embrace the Truth that came from Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, to be sanctified as per verse 17, as all the Messengers are 'Christ'.

Verse 18 is about all the Messengers, as they are all One in the Holy Spirit, they actually send each other.

Verse 19 is the Oneness of the Messengers, they Glorify each other.

Verse 20 is Jesus asking that humanity is also able to become one with the Messengers

Verse 21 is God's Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. All humanity has finally embraced all of God's Messengers from Adam to Baha'u'llah. Inclusive of Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I add IMHO and give praise Ya Baha'ul Abha as God's Kingdom is being shaped as we speak.

Regards Tony
 
I agree, but I do wonder what the Holy Spirit teaches.
James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces cendurance.
4 And let aendurance have its perfect result, so that you may be bperfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,


New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jas 1:2–7.
 
But consider John:6:54–57:
"Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

Does this mean cannibalism? How can anyone eat his flesh and drink his blood?
Ok, let’s put this back in the context of the passage. People rip scripture out of context all the time. Jesus also says this at the last supper.:

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and bafter a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”[1]

OK, Jesus is still alive here and states this, so we know it can’t actually be his body and blood.

Let’s move on. Put the verses of John back in context;

John 6:29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?31 “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’ ”32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world. ”34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”[2] 41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.45“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.48“I am the bread of life.49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”[3]

Jesus is comparing Himself to the Manna that God gave the children of Israel for 40 years to provide life for them. Jesus declares Himself as the Manna. We know for certain that the blood and body can’t mean to actually eat his flesh and drink His blood. But was His body sacrificed for us, yes. And let’s not forget His words: ”abides in Me, and I in him” (56) This shows up in John 16 an17, “you in me and I in you”.

Jesus becomes life for us.

Sorry for the length, but it needed to stay in context.






[2] New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 6:29–40.
[3] New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 6:41–58.
 
Ok, let’s put this back in the context of the passage.
Exactly ... we have to put the text in context. Where it sits in that particular Letter, where it sits in relation to the New Testament, where it sits in relation to the Bible, where it sits in relation to Paul's theology ...

People rip scripture out of context all the time.
Exactly my point.
 
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