G-d did not write the Bible..
That is why we see "according to".
Persecuted Religions
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That is why we see "according to".
Faithfulservant
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@TheLightWithin
There is so much to this that I don't know how to start or how to put it into mere text. I will try and you are welcome to ask questions if I'm not clear on something. I need to provide a little background for effect I think.
I grew up in a bible believing household.. it wasnt just a family culture for me. I felt very close to Jesus my whole life and recall feeling His presence as a child. I knew the core doctrinal beliefs and at the age of 12 I attended an end times prophecy seminar and fell in love with it.
As I aged into my 20s life got ahead of me I didn't spend time with God.. I was not grounded in the Word and my prayer life was on the back burner. But I was hungry and felt convicted. In the mailbox I found a brochure for a 10 week prophecy seminar and decided that would fire me up. There was no indication of what would be discussed as it was very vague. The church it was being hosted at was A SDA church and it was literally a few blocks away. Mind you this was before Google and the internet so I went into this church blindly.
The first night they introduced the Sabbath doctrine. They provided OT scripture and I accepted it because the Sabbath day of rest was established at creation pre Commandment. I was sold on this. Remember I was brought up to take the bible literally.
The next week they introduced Veganism. Oh boy that one was tougher.. they said Veganism is the goal but we could start off eliminating pork and shellfish. Ok I could do this. At this time the pastor and his wife were coming to my home already. I bought into this because pre flood people were vegans and it wasn't until afterwards that people were allowed to consume flesh.
Will continue in next post...
There is so much to this that I don't know how to start or how to put it into mere text. I will try and you are welcome to ask questions if I'm not clear on something. I need to provide a little background for effect I think.
I grew up in a bible believing household.. it wasnt just a family culture for me. I felt very close to Jesus my whole life and recall feeling His presence as a child. I knew the core doctrinal beliefs and at the age of 12 I attended an end times prophecy seminar and fell in love with it.
As I aged into my 20s life got ahead of me I didn't spend time with God.. I was not grounded in the Word and my prayer life was on the back burner. But I was hungry and felt convicted. In the mailbox I found a brochure for a 10 week prophecy seminar and decided that would fire me up. There was no indication of what would be discussed as it was very vague. The church it was being hosted at was A SDA church and it was literally a few blocks away. Mind you this was before Google and the internet so I went into this church blindly.
The first night they introduced the Sabbath doctrine. They provided OT scripture and I accepted it because the Sabbath day of rest was established at creation pre Commandment. I was sold on this. Remember I was brought up to take the bible literally.
The next week they introduced Veganism. Oh boy that one was tougher.. they said Veganism is the goal but we could start off eliminating pork and shellfish. Ok I could do this. At this time the pastor and his wife were coming to my home already. I bought into this because pre flood people were vegans and it wasn't until afterwards that people were allowed to consume flesh.
Will continue in next post...
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
@TheLightWithin
The next week they introduced soul sleep. I had a very hard time with this one and after the teaching I went in the bathroom and had a breakdown. I lost my father when I was 12 and had always been comforted by him being in heaven. The pastors wife came to the bathroom to console me. The reasoning for this the bible says and so and so slept. And grossly twisted what Jesus said on the cross to the thief. Pastor and wife continued to come to my home.
The next week they taught one could lose their salvation if they didn't do works. I'm just shell shocked at this point but I continued to attend each week and it starts to get blurry what was taught each week. So I will sum it up.
Sabbath keepers are the only ones that would make it to the Resurrection. Sabbath keepers replaced Israel. Non Sabbath keepers was the mark of the beast.. if you didn't keep the Sabbath you couldn't be saved.
Jesus took on our corruption..
Satan was a scape goat for sinners
We've been in the judgement phase since 1844
They pushed Ellen G White books as a second gospel.
There is probably more but my psyche was traumatized. I became afraid and felt like I wasn't worthy of Salvation. I started having panic attacks. I had been attending the church on the Sabbath and each service caused me more anxiety.
I eventually quit attending because my car broke down.. I praise God for that. But not attending Sabbath caused me more anxiety I eventually started doubting God's existence. I had a crisis of Faith. Anytime anyone would talk about God I would shut down like a kid with their ears plugged saying lalala. Until that day with that radio talk show... It was like a light shine down on me.
I didn't know it then but I was being introduced to a cult using cult behaviors to draw me in. It was very deceptive and I was vulnerable because I didn't know my scripture. I was not armed. But let me tell you that it has never happened to me again.
My heart goes out to people in that church because they are in bondage and their hearts are for the Lord and always working to be found worthy of being saved.
This explains to you why I am the way I am. And why I post the way I post and the issues I am so adamant about.
Thanks for being interested enough to ask. That's my story!
The next week they introduced soul sleep. I had a very hard time with this one and after the teaching I went in the bathroom and had a breakdown. I lost my father when I was 12 and had always been comforted by him being in heaven. The pastors wife came to the bathroom to console me. The reasoning for this the bible says and so and so slept. And grossly twisted what Jesus said on the cross to the thief. Pastor and wife continued to come to my home.
The next week they taught one could lose their salvation if they didn't do works. I'm just shell shocked at this point but I continued to attend each week and it starts to get blurry what was taught each week. So I will sum it up.
Sabbath keepers are the only ones that would make it to the Resurrection. Sabbath keepers replaced Israel. Non Sabbath keepers was the mark of the beast.. if you didn't keep the Sabbath you couldn't be saved.
Jesus took on our corruption..
Satan was a scape goat for sinners
We've been in the judgement phase since 1844
They pushed Ellen G White books as a second gospel.
There is probably more but my psyche was traumatized. I became afraid and felt like I wasn't worthy of Salvation. I started having panic attacks. I had been attending the church on the Sabbath and each service caused me more anxiety.
I eventually quit attending because my car broke down.. I praise God for that. But not attending Sabbath caused me more anxiety I eventually started doubting God's existence. I had a crisis of Faith. Anytime anyone would talk about God I would shut down like a kid with their ears plugged saying lalala. Until that day with that radio talk show... It was like a light shine down on me.
I didn't know it then but I was being introduced to a cult using cult behaviors to draw me in. It was very deceptive and I was vulnerable because I didn't know my scripture. I was not armed. But let me tell you that it has never happened to me again.
My heart goes out to people in that church because they are in bondage and their hearts are for the Lord and always working to be found worthy of being saved.
This explains to you why I am the way I am. And why I post the way I post and the issues I am so adamant about.
Thanks for being interested enough to ask. That's my story!
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Here's your problem, The Quran claims that God gave the Bible (Book) to Moses and others in the Bible. So did the Quran lie?
TheLightWithin
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Thanks for sharing your experience. So interesting! And sounds like an incredibly emotionally and spiritually draining experience.
Religious groups can have such an intensity! And insistence! And arrogance! Not limited to any one group, but devotion in many forms can bring out the zeal... and then some...
Regarding your experience: Was it the content of the ideas themselves that were intensely distressing, or was it the demeanor of the people and how they treated you?
(I got that the idea of soul sleep rather than immediate heaven was upsetting to your worldview, and your beliefs about your father's post-death experience, but the other things like the investigative judgment or scapegoat or vegetarianism or the theology of Ellen White --- were they themselves also shocking or merely confusing?)
I get that the -- I think traditional?-- view of eternity-in-hell upsets people for sure. I knew that some people did not agree with conditional immortality/annihilationism/soul sleep, but even though I've talked to people about it a lot I never had heard anybody share how much it upset them to learn the conditional immortality view of the afterlife.
When it comes to religious groups that are intense and adamant -- It's the control thing and/or grab for money that can be so insidious.
Were they extremely personally controlling and did they try to get a lot of money from you? (if you don't mind my asking)
My grandfather had such an intensity (Armstrong church, a descendant of SDA)
He was willing to send them money. But there were almost no other followers in the area so we weren't browbeaten by anybody.
The talk about the end of the world coming soon was scary.
But the talk of the dead sleeping and then being resurrected (rather than heaven or hell) has stuck with me as a foundational lesson in remaining skeptical of "what everybody else believes" I remain skeptical of the traditional (I guess) view which seems to me like the alternate view.
I've followed a lot of groups on Facebook about that very topic (conditional immortality vs eternal conscious torment)
On the plus side, you managed to get away from a group that hounded you with their version of "the truth" and didn't seem to understand what upset you or help you with it. It sounds suffocating!
Myself, I would enjoy trying to visit an SDA church. The theology they teach is closer to what I was used to from childhood.
Of course I would walk right away from them if they were oppressive, demanding, or insensitive.
The obstacle for me would be feeling like a cultural outsider to both groups that are nearby
My sense of their take on the Sabbath is heavy handed though (as my grandfather's group was) and from what I have learned since I don't think Gentiles are supposed to observe the Sabbath the same way Jews are commanded to. This I learned from reading up on Noahides.
Thanks again for sharing. It is always so interesting to hear how people's experiences and what they were taught, when, and by whom -- and how all of that shapes their beliefs and attitudes.
I hope talking about it is a little freeing and not upsetting.
.
Faithfulservant
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I want to answer your questions thoughtfully and not rushed because I feel your desire to understand is sincere and I appreciate that same quality that I have.
It was all distressing to me apart from Sabbath keeping and dietary requirements. Those did not have a direct impact on my foundations of faith. The Soul sleep is the most intense memory for me as traumatic. I felt like my heart was rebreaking as it did when my father passed away. I literally started to go through the steps of grieving.. anger disbelief acceptance extreme sorrow. I think I freaked the pastors wife out..she didn't understand. My father was a spiritual man but he was NOT a Sabbath keeper so he would not be saved according to them.
I think I was the only person there that was not a member of the church to be honest.. I think that's why they were coming to my house and taking such a personal interest in me. It was very flattering at the time until I understood what they were doing. Regarding money it's interesting that the very first service I attended the topic was tithing. There was an overwhelming pressure to tithe.
SDA were originally Millerites it's interesting to research what happened.
The depth of depression I fell into could only be catergorized as my loss of hope. It's comforting to me that I am assured of eternity and that death is not the end.. during the years of my crisis of Faith I developed an unnatural fear of death that manifests into panic attacks. This developed during that time and still plagues me from time to time. I didn't know what was happening then I thought I was going crazy and the firefighters/EMTs were familiar with me after awhile.
I was suffocating with fear and by God's Grace I got away fairly quickly.
I fear it would be a trigger for me. I could not go back.
I'm good! I'm always willing to share. I'm going to go research Armstrong now as I'm not familiar with that one!My sense of their take on the Sabbath is heavy handed though (as my grandfather's group was) and from what I have learned since I don't think Gentiles are supposed to observe the Sabbath the same way Jews are commanded to. This I learned from reading up on Noahides.
Thanks again for sharing. It is always so interesting to hear how people's experiences and what they were taught, when, and by whom -- and how all of that shapes their beliefs and attitudes.
I hope talking about it is a little freeing and not upsetting.
.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
@TheLightWithin yup! Sounds very similar! I can imagine if you grew up in that church it would feel very comfortable. I was actually brought up originally in a Lutheran church as a young child but we changed to a non denominational church.
TheLightWithin
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Definitely does NOT sound like the SDA is a healthy place for you.
The Armstrong rabbit hole will be intriguing to say the least.
I definitely do not agree with every detail of it, and they are wayyy too conservative for me, but... in some ways they and their existing descendants are a touchstone for me, not quiiite a spiritual home but reminding me of home.
If not for the cultural barriers with local SDAs, I would have gone a long time ago.
NO guarantee I would have stayed. For sure. I stuck with Unity church for a long time though (completely different and more in line with my mom's beliefs probably)
To learn more about the Armstrong churches, the Wikipedia entry is decent, and then there's this bonanza of a channel
Their last few videos have been about Armstrong churches and their surviving descendants (possibly at my request when they were asking for suggestions for the next year, at the end of 2022)
He also sometimes partners with a great channel called Useful Charts where they have similarly informative videos including on the Armstrong churches, SDA and others, as well as general history.
Here's a video about the exact church my grandfather was into in the 70s
Faithfulservant
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Thanks for introducing me to a new you tuber! Very informative!
moralorel
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While I don't completely agree with your wording, I'm quite impressed that someone has been reading their Bible!
Forget about "books".. no book fell out of the sky.
Is the NT claimed to be a revelation dictated to a prophet of G-d? No.
It is a selection of texts, written by various authors .. were they chosen by pious men?
Most likely .. yes.
Faithfulservant
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I'm curious as to what you don't agree with in my wording. That is literally what they taught.
As far as reading the Bible that's all I can do. Putting on the armor of God is a real form of defense for me.
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Well, since Matthew and John both lived with Jesus for 3 years and witnessed what He did and said, I don't think that we need dictation here like Muhammad got in a cave over 20+ years that is just a bunch of repetition and Allah stating how Merciful he is.
Hmmm .. most scholars think otherwise..
According to early church tradition, the gospel was written by Matthew the companion of Jesus, but this presents numerous problems.
...
Most scholars view the gospel of Matthew as a work of the second generation of Christians, for whom the defining event was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in AD 70 in the course of the First Jewish–Roman War (AD 66–73). From this point on, what had begun with Jesus of Nazareth as a Jewish messianic movement became an increasingly gentile phenomenon evolving in time into a separate religion. They hold that the author wrote for a community of Greek-speaking Jewish Christians located probably in Syria. Antioch, the largest city in Roman Syria and the third largest city in the empire, is often proposed.
Gospel_of_Matthew - Wikipedia
..and don't get me discussing the author of John..
TheLightWithin
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When it comes to the naming of the authors of the Gospels--Hmmm .. most scholars think otherwise..
According to early church tradition, the gospel was written by Matthew the companion of Jesus, but this presents numerous problems.
...
Most scholars view the gospel of Matthew as a work of the second generation of Christians, for whom the defining event was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in AD 70 in the course of the First Jewish–Roman War (AD 66–73). From this point on, what had begun with Jesus of Nazareth as a Jewish messianic movement became an increasingly gentile phenomenon evolving in time into a separate religion. They hold that the author wrote for a community of Greek-speaking Jewish Christians located probably in Syria. Antioch, the largest city in Roman Syria and the third largest city in the empire, is often proposed.
Gospel_of_Matthew - Wikipedia
..and don't get me discussing the author of John..
Long before I ever studied these things, I realized something, maybe in a youth group bible study or maybe something my grandpa said --
But I realized something about how or when the Gospels were written, and who wrote them, and I surmised that the disciples and their own disciples founded groups, schools, or churches, and someone in those communities wrote down everything that they learned in that groups.
So even if not written by a first hand disciple, written by someone who learned the Gospel from that disciple.
TheLightWithin
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But also, she was quoting what the SDAs she knew at the time had taught.
I always thought the Catholic Church was quite clever – in Dei Verbum, a Constitution Document of Vatican II, it never actually identifies the human authors of the New Testament, but rather speaks of the sacred scribe, or human author working under Divine Inspiration.
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It does not "present numerous problems. Wikipedia said: "most scholars", wrong, that's just not true. This kind of non sense has been going on forever with people. What to the current scholars know, they have the same resources that have always been used.
It has traditionally been attributed to St. Matthew the Evangelist, one of the 12 Apostles, described in the text as a tax collector (10:3). The Gospel According to Matthew was composed in Greek, probably sometime after 70 CE, with evident dependence on the earlier Gospel According to Mark. There has, however, been extended discussion about the possibility of an earlier version in Aramaic.
Gospel According to Matthew | Description, History, & Facts
Gospel According to Matthew, first of the four New Testament Gospels (narratives recounting the life and death of Jesus Christ) and, with The Gospels According to Mark and Luke, one of the three so-called Synoptic Gospels (i.e., those presenting a common view). It has traditionally been...
www.britannica.com
Evidently Britannica has not got Wikipedia's notes yet.
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That's interesting since they were not robots taking dictation. that why some of the stories have slight differences. Matthew was with Jesus, Luke asked people what happened and Mark might have been standing to far in the back of the crowd. John's Gospel is so different in context.
That is the thing about religion.
If somebody wants to believe something is true, they will.
By dismissing other people's opinions with a hand-wave, only causes ourselves loss.
Almighty God knows why we say what we say .. He is the Best of Judges, and guides whomsoever He wills.
Nobody will have true faith, unless they wish for others what they wish for themselves.