What do you mean by that?
Jews find sense in the Tanakh
..and Muslims find sense in the Qur'an.
Neither need to have read the other.
Persecuted Religions
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Jews find sense in the Tanakh
..and Muslims find sense in the Qur'an.
Neither need to have read the other.
Believe me, I really know your type of Christian. One branch of my family sounds exactly like you, down to individual phrases and sentiments, including this inexplicable thing for feeling persecuted. Needless to say, Christians, of any kind, are not persecuted in my country.
The Branch Davidians were the last instance of a conflict between a Christian group and law enforcement in the US that made the news over here. Were they really your kind of Christians?
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I never meant individual persecution. The Branch Davidians was a cult, nothing to do with Christianity. I don't believe all of any group are what they say they are. If your life doesn't reflect the teaching of the Bible, I don't care what you call yourself, you are not a Christian. Too many people look at Christianity like you do and you don't have the slightest idea what a Christian is. There are really very few Christians, a lot of people who claim to be, but as Jesus said to those who thought that they were Christ followers, "depart from me, I never knew you" Why don't you look for the truth.
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Well the truth finally comes out. You are angry at someone and you take it out on the True Christians. I have run across many people who are angry with Christianity, not because they have ever met a true Christian but because they have been burned by someone claiming to be a Christian or a "church" that did them wrong. All anyone has to do is to read the NT to see what a Christian should look and act like.
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The stories in the Quran are very erratic and incomplete. Bits and pieces, they don't flow and don't agree with the Jewish text.
Nonsense .. it flows perfectly well.
22 And when he turned his face toward Midian, he said: Peradventure my Lord will guide me in the right road.
23 And when he came unto the water of Midian he found there a whole tribe of men, watering. And he found apart from them two women keeping back (their flocks). He said: What aileth you? The two said: We cannot give (our flocks) to drink till the shepherds return from the water; and our father is a very old man.
24 So he watered (their flock) for them. Then he turned aside into the shade, and said: My Lord! I am needy of whatever good thou sendest down for me.
25 Then there came unto him one of the two women, walking shyly. She said: Lo! my father biddeth thee, that he may reward thee with a payment for that thou didst water (the flock) for us. Then, when he came unto him and told him the (whole) story, he said: Fear not! Thou hast escaped from the wrongdoing folk.
26 One of the two women said: O my father! Hire him! For the best (man) that thou canst hire is the strong, the trustworthy.
27 He said: Lo! I fain would marry thee to one of these two daughters of mine on condition that thou hirest thyself to me for (the term of) eight pilgrimages. Then if thou completest ten it will be of thine own accord, for I would not make it hard for thee. Allah willing, thou wilt find me of the righteous.
28 He said: That (is settled) between thee and me. Whichever of the two terms I fulfil, there will be no injustice to me, and Allah is Surety over what we say.
29 Then, when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was traveling with his housefolk, he saw in the distance a fire and said unto his housefolk: Bide ye (here). Lo! I see in the distance a fire; peradventure I shall bring you tidings thence, or a brand from the fire that you may warm yourselves.
30 And when he reached it, he was called from the right side of the valley in the blessed field, from the tree: O Moses! Lo! I, even I, am Allah, the Lord of the Worlds;
31 Throw down thy staff. And when he saw it writhing as it had been a demon, he turned to flee headlong, (and it was said unto him): O Moses! Draw nigh and fear not. Lo! thou art of those who are secure.
32 Thrust thy hand into the bosom of thy robe, it will come forth white without hurt. And guard thy heart from fear. Then these shall be two proofs from your Lord unto Pharaoh and his chiefs: Lo! they are evil living folk.
33 He said: My Lord! Lo! I killed a man among them and I fear that they will kill me.
34 My brother Aaron is more eloquent then me in speech. Therefore send him with me as a helper to confirm me. Lo! 1 fear that they will give the lie to me.
35 He said: We will strengthen thine arm with thy brother, and We will give unto you both power so that they cannot reach you for Our portents. Ye twain, and those who follow you, will be the winners.
36 But when Moses came unto them with Our clear tokens, they said: This is naught but invented magic. We never heard of this among our fathers of old.
- Al Qur'an The Story -
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I was going to take a religious take on this question, but I think the answer is more broad. I believe this world is hostile towards honest, humble, hard-working people who just want to get through the day. They might not always be persecuted in certain parts of the world, but they definitely have a rough time in this world. Even in the workforce I see it. It's like we have an inclination towards hurting the innocent.
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For anyone wanting to read the real story it starting in Exodus Chapter 2, verse 15 and ends in Chapter 4, verse 17. The stories do not match, Muhammad makes so many changes to the original story. “
Exodus 3:13–14 (NASB95): Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
This is just one very important part that Muhammad leaves out.
But Jesus picks this name of God back up in the Book of John:
John 8:56–John 9 (NASB95): “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
Sure, I get angry. I'm at peace with my family, at least as far as the Christians are concerned.
However, right now, I'm increasingly irritated by you, in fact, because you don't seem to want to grasp the concept of Interfaith Dialogue. I have to ask again, did you read our Code of Conduct? It is a short, lucid text, quick to read and very straightforward.
Here is a link for your convenience: https://interfaith.org/community/forums/63/
Persecuted religious groups - to get back on topic:
Regarding the persecution of Christians, here's a Catholic site with some stats:
www.vaticannews.va
Afghanistan under the Taliban, North Korea, and parts of sub-saharan Africa are particularly bad.
The situation in sub-Saharan Africa seems to be rather horrible and complex, with Muslims being targeted, too, by the opponents of Boko Haram.
Muslims are being persecuted in China (in Xinjiang, but also in southern China), in Burma (the Rohingya people), in the Philippines, in Sri Lanka, and in India, among other places. Over here in Europe, the war in Bosnia is only a couple of decades ago, with massacres of the Muslim population.
In my own country of Germany, the recently active terror organization "NSU" was specifically targeting Muslims, resulting in a series of murders. In neighboring Switzerland, there was an attack on a mosque, with shooting. Shootings are highly unusual and very rare here in Europe, compared to the US. Still, it shows how dangerous even the most prosperous and ostensibly enlightened and civilized countries on this planet can be.
Jews face anti-semitism on a daily basis almost everywhere on this planet. It routinely escalates into dangerous situations, even concerted attacks on synagogues. Here in Germany, besides the daily occurrences, there was a horrible attack on a synagogue in Halle a few years ago, where luckily the doors literally held and the attacker was unable to enter.
The Baha'is face persecution in Iran and other countries.
The list goes on and on. I just mentioned some high-profile ones.
But besides the terrorists, be they private or state-run, who attack religious freedom world-wide, there are also a lot of people quietly working to increase the understanding and thus the peaceful coexistence between religious groups. This includes us, right here, at Interfaith.org. I sincerely believe that this is a noble effort, and I'm grateful for you all who participate in it.
Regarding the persecution of Christians, here's a Catholic site with some stats:
Persecution against Christians on the rise worldwide - Vatican News
The 2022 World Watch List (WWL) released on Wednesday by Open Doors International shows that persecution against Christians continues to rise ...
www.vaticannews.va
Afghanistan under the Taliban, North Korea, and parts of sub-saharan Africa are particularly bad.
The situation in sub-Saharan Africa seems to be rather horrible and complex, with Muslims being targeted, too, by the opponents of Boko Haram.
Muslims are being persecuted in China (in Xinjiang, but also in southern China), in Burma (the Rohingya people), in the Philippines, in Sri Lanka, and in India, among other places. Over here in Europe, the war in Bosnia is only a couple of decades ago, with massacres of the Muslim population.
In my own country of Germany, the recently active terror organization "NSU" was specifically targeting Muslims, resulting in a series of murders. In neighboring Switzerland, there was an attack on a mosque, with shooting. Shootings are highly unusual and very rare here in Europe, compared to the US. Still, it shows how dangerous even the most prosperous and ostensibly enlightened and civilized countries on this planet can be.
Jews face anti-semitism on a daily basis almost everywhere on this planet. It routinely escalates into dangerous situations, even concerted attacks on synagogues. Here in Germany, besides the daily occurrences, there was a horrible attack on a synagogue in Halle a few years ago, where luckily the doors literally held and the attacker was unable to enter.
The Baha'is face persecution in Iran and other countries.
The list goes on and on. I just mentioned some high-profile ones.
But besides the terrorists, be they private or state-run, who attack religious freedom world-wide, there are also a lot of people quietly working to increase the understanding and thus the peaceful coexistence between religious groups. This includes us, right here, at Interfaith.org. I sincerely believe that this is a noble effort, and I'm grateful for you all who participate in it.
Christmas in this nation of religious freedom begins not long after Halloween, with radios and stores playing Christmas music, nativity scenes and lights going up...
It is ubiquitous, not a soul in the country can get away from this overt celebration which is persecuted?
It is ubiquitous, not a soul in the country can get away from this overt celebration which is persecuted?
The traditional English translation within Judaism favours "I will be what I will be" because the imperfective aspect in Modern Hebrew is normally used for future tense and there is no present tense with direct object of the verb "to be" in the Hebrew language.
I_Am_that_I_Am - Wikipedia
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OK, I have been at this a long time and here is what I have learned, Religious people of different religions can not dialogue about Religion, so what is the purpose of this site? I tell you about my Religion and you tell me about your Religion and no one cares. I read every day and love to debate whenever I get the chance. I pulled my copy of the Quran out last week and just decided to go through it again, since it's been about 15 years since I last did that. Like I have said and you certainly prove me correct, you don't understand Christianity or the Bible. Most people who claim to be part of any religion get all their information from another person, not the source (book). But it doesn't matter, you don't really care. You have your beliefs and that's it. Like I have said when people believe that they can't be wrong, they are probably wrong.
People are followers, very few are leaders. Take your country, by the way, I love it, just 80 years ago an entire country (I know that there were some against what happened) joined a fanatic in killing millions of people. Other countries with very good con artists have also walked down this path. Russia, Italy, Japan, and the list goes on. People buying the lies of a good salesman. Don't take offence, just what advertising, people understand how to control people. People are dumb, the Bible calls them sheep and there is a good reason for that. Educated people are some of the worse people. You can buy into the lies if you like, I really would be shocked if you did.
Here is a classic example of someone not wanting to believe the truth. A mother has a son, he's not a very good son and this son murd-ers someone. The son is caught. The mother is interviewed and says, "he's a good boy, he would not do this". Complete denial because she does not want to believe it.
Everyone believes lies, even me, the challenge for anyone is to try their best to see if what they believe is true. That will never happen for most people because they want comfort and belonging to something, even if it a lie is ok, because they belong.
I realize that my time here has been wasted.
God did speak to me last night as He has done in the past. He uses Scripture, I was talking to Him last night as I often do and this very clearly came to my mind, It's not a verse I think about, but certainly know.
6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 7:6.
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Do you really think that you are telling me something that I don't already know!
It's foolish for me to waste my time over this. Yes either translation will work and it's not going to change anything, 1st tense or 3rd tense. It's still a name God uses. The I AM translation just makes more sense. I will be has sent you or I AM has sent you. The first translation does not make sense in the English. Most English translations translate this as "I AM". You need to learn a little more about translation.
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 8:58.
So how will you try to twist "before Abraham was born"? There was also the last foolish statement about Jesus not being the Messiah when the passage from Psalms was used where King David said "the Lord said to my Lord" Once again referring to Jesus.
Believe whatever makes you feel good, lies do that to people all the time. Part of learning is trying to figure out what lies you believe.
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More Muslims have been kil-led by Muslims than any other group of people. It's the way of the mid-east. Just like more black people have been kil-led by black people. But why not always try to blame someone or something else. Like I have said, "lies will eventually become the truth to most people"
To me, the purpose is to increase religious tolerance.
Also, companionship. The people around here are good company.
But mainly, for me, the purpose is to encourage each other to become more tolerant of other world views. I admit it is not always easy for me here, to be confronted with beliefs that go against the grain of my own deeply held convictions. But that's the point. It's not easy, but it is worthwile.
Hm. You have visited my country, and enjoyed it, if I remember correctly. You moved back to the US. Does that mean you don't care? I would like to think that you appreciated what my country had to offer, you were open to eating rye bread and sausages and to drinking our beer and our wine, you heard German spoken in the streets and so on. This doesn't mean you wanted to become German! But you cared, your life was enriched by the exposure to Germany.
I think there are a lot of parallels to learning about other world views here. An Italian may at first be appalled at the thought of making bread from rye and sourdough, when the obvious, tasty thing to do is to use wheat and yeast. A Muslim would not consider prophets after Muhammad as speaking to them, but the Baha'i faith has more recent prophets, and while not about to accept their message, it is possible to appreciate it for inspiring people to lead good ethical lives. I, who have not even one god, enjoy the intricate reasoning about the structure of the Trinity, or the mystical language from the Kabbalah, about how God had to retract to make room for creation...
I may not get Christianity like you do, and you may not get the self-luminous universe I perceive, but if we listen to each other for a while, we might just start to get a sense of the living, breathing, feeling human being we are interacting with, and to start caring for each other on a level beyond the dogmas and scriptures which we all love so much.
And isn't that half of your laws&prophets already, to love the next person as oneself?
In many of your posts, I see what the psychologists call "projection".
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Maybe I am just too simple. Anywhere you look you will see lies. People just don’t seem to care. Now, can I care about people no matter what they believe, certainly. Do I care about a person more if I see them heading in a wrong direction and try to help them, yes. Say someone is in a bad abusive relationship and I try to help the person out of it, yet they don’t want out of the relationship because they feel like no one else will every love them. Should I sit back and see them abused or try to help them see what they can not see at this point. Which is the right or loving thing to do? What you see in my posts are your interpretions based on what you want to believe about me. I try my best to be clear when I say something and over explain myself too much. My entire journey here has been about deceit, not me trying to deceive but we can all be deceive. I don’t now why this bothers me so much. People lie and deceive people all the time. I guess that according to you I shouldn’t care. Let’s just chat about the weather, wait, even weather people get that wrong too!
I agree with what Jesus said.
I also existed before Abraham was born.
Perhaps you will learn properly, one day .. arrogance is NOT an attribute of a well-educated believer.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
In the Muslim countries, I would offer the Baha'i are persecuted to a greater extent than Jews and Christians.
Why they are so disliked, is because the essence of the Faith of Muhammad has been forgotten and long neglected.
The Bible foretells this, that Islam would last 1260 years and be as a dead body laying in the street. This is because Islam did not accept Ali as the rightful successor, appointed verbally by Muhammad. The Shia Dynasties became the Beast.
Revelation 11 tells the story of Islam, in verse 3 the Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali, who shall give prophecy for 1260 years.
Verse 8 and 9 tell us of the error made and that Islam became a Faith based in man made Law and not of the Spirit of the Teachings of Muhammad.
A lot can be offered, only if one is interested.
Regards Tony