Clear teaching by Jesus

Thinking required

Thinking required

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I know that most of you here don’t believe the Bible to be God’s Word to mankind, or believe that it is but we can’t trust it. These verses should explain why Christians believe as they do. Thoughts?

John 17:1–10 (NASB95): 1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
 
Thinking required said:
I know that most of you here don’t believe the Bible to be God’s Word to mankind, or believe that it is but we can’t trust it. These verses should explain why Christians believe as they do. Thoughts?
John 17:1–10 (NASB95): 1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
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I see in these passages that Both ther "Son" and the "Father" are stations of the Holy Spirt.

Without going into an essay of an answer. I would offer the Son was known as Jesus the Christ and the Father was known as Baha'u'llah.

All that Jesus Christ was to give us, was given to us by the Father.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see in these passages that Both ther "Son" and the "Father" are stations of the Holy Spirt.

Without going into an essay of an answer. I would offer the Son was known as Jesus the Christ and the Father was known as Baha'u'llah.

All that Jesus Christ was to give us, was given to us by the Father.

Regards Tony
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Interesting. I had never heard that Baha'u'llah was thought of as the same person as the Father?
 
TheLightWithin said:
Interesting. I had never heard that Baha'u'llah was thought of as the same person as the Father?
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It is in the declaration made to the Pope by Baha'u'llah. The first mention is offered as.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Six works comprising letters written by Bahá’u’lláh during His exile in Adrianople and the early years of His banishment to ‘Akká, addressed to the monarchs and leaders of His time, including Napoleon III of France, Czar Alexander II of Russia, Queen Victoria of England, Nasiri’d-Din Shah of...
www.bahai.org www.bahai.org

".....The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous...."

So to me that is saying the Son has now come as the Father.

Then later in this Tablet, Baha'u'llah makes it a clear statement.

"...This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” This is the Word which was preserved behind the veils of grandeur, and which, when the Promise came to pass, shed its radiance from the horizon of the Divine Will with clear tokens...."

There are many more references.

Regards Tony
 
Thinking required said:
These verses should explain why Christians believe as they do. Thoughts?
John 17:1–10
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This passage reads like a prayer by Jesus to God, not a teaching given to his disciples.

Nevertheless, I recognize core beliefs and teachings from Christianity in it.

A thought on the word translated as "glorified" - in my mind, it resonates with the "sanctified" or "hallowed" from the Lord's prayer, and from the Jewish Kaddish prayer.

Question to Christians: what does it mean to glorify or sanctify God or Jesus? How do you do it?
 
Cino said:
This passage reads like a prayer by Jesus to God, not a teaching given to his disciples.

Nevertheless, I recognize core beliefs and teachings from Christianity in it.

A thought on the word translated as "glorified" - in my mind, it resonates with the "sanctified" or "hallowed" from the Lord's prayer, and from the Jewish Kaddish prayer.

Question to Christians: what does it mean to glorify or sanctify God or Jesus? How do you do it?
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To sanctify God is to set Him apart as Holy. He said to Be Holy for I am Holy. To Glorify God or bring Him Glory is to do that He commands us to do or mirroring what He would do. Jesus' life is the perfect example of how to Glorify God.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
It is in the declaration made to the Pope by Baha'u'llah. The first mention is offered as.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Six works comprising letters written by Bahá’u’lláh during His exile in Adrianople and the early years of His banishment to ‘Akká, addressed to the monarchs and leaders of His time, including Napoleon III of France, Czar Alexander II of Russia, Queen Victoria of England, Nasiri’d-Din Shah of...
www.bahai.org www.bahai.org

".....The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous...."

So to me that is saying the Son has now come as the Father.

Then later in this Tablet, Baha'u'llah makes it a clear statement.

"...This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” This is the Word which was preserved behind the veils of grandeur, and which, when the Promise came to pass, shed its radiance from the horizon of the Divine Will with clear tokens...."

There are many more references.

Regards Tony
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Very interesting!
Does that mean Bahai see God as a Trinity, in the same was a classical Christianity?
 
TheLightWithin said:
Very interesting!
Does that mean Bahai see God as a Trinity, in the same was a classical Christianity?
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I would offer that we need to let go of the word Trinity, as that doctrine has become a cause of great division amongst humanity.

There is God who has created. The Holy Spirit which emanates from God as all the attributes is the Cause and there is creation to which the apex is the Perfect Man, the Messenger.

images (4).jpeg

In the above God is the Sun, the Rays are the Holy Spirt and the Mirrors are all the Messengers throughout all of time and the person is representing humanity. (I see this is applicable to the many other worlds of God, that I see the future will come to find)

So in I see a Oneness, only divided if we see it in the flesh and not the Spirit. If we as a human Spirit become one with the Messengers, then that is a Oneness with God.

Can be discussed in many ways, always happy to discuss as it opens up different thoughts.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I would offer that we need to let go of the word Trinity, as that doctrine has become a cause of great division amongst humanity.

There is God who has created. The Holy Spirit which emanates from God as all the attributes is the Cause and there is creation to which the apex is the Perfect Man, the Messenger.

View attachment 3379
In the above God is the Sun, the Rays are the Holy Spirt and the Mirrors are all the Messengers throughout all of time and the person is representing humanity. (I see this is applicable to the many other worlds of God, that I see the future will come to find)

So in I see a Oneness, only divided if we see it in the flesh and not the Spirit. If we as a human Spirit become one with the Messengers, then that is a Oneness with God.

Can be discussed in many ways, always happy to discuss as it opens up different thoughts.

Regards Tony
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I find that theology understandable and convincing. Love it.
 
wil said:
Seems your sermon was interrupted.

Thoughts?
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Thinking required said:
John 17:1–10 (NASB95): 1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
Click to expand...
 
wil said:
Oh you did not come here for discussion?

Just cntl c cntrl v?
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I do like it best when people make their case in their own words and use the quotes as backups.
Just reposting material can work ok on facebook (that's pretty much what I do on FB) but not on a discussion forum.
 
Cino said:
Question to Christians: what does it mean to glorify or sanctify God or Jesus? How do you do it?
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I am not certain that we can Glorify God. And I know that there is no way to "sanctify" what is already perfect. Is He not already Glorify by His creation. This Christian thing is a complicated thing in some ways. I have to ask myself every day if I am pleasing to God. But I don't ask myself if I am pleasing to my wife. I know that I am in the way she interacts with me. With God this becomes a little more difficult. He (God the Father) calls us sons, Jesus (God the Son) calls us brothers. This must have something to do with how I live and is put in the context of family. But I still live in this body (flesh) and this body (flesh) lusts, desires and is just outright selfish. So it's a battle every day to try to let people see God through me. I fail daily, Maybe I should just close my posts by always saying, I am rotten to the core when living in the flesh and made more pleasing to God when I fight the flesh and live in the Spirit.
I think that I have been getting in trouble with just posting Bible verses, so I will try harder to just live in this flesh, but you will have to be patient with me.
 
Thinking required said:
I think that I have been getting in trouble with just posting Bible verses
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What is most energizing is when someone describes what the bible verse means theologically and/or to themselves personally, and how they apply it. It's not always obvious! But it is edifying to hear about how people relate to it.
 
Thinking required said:
I think that I have been getting in trouble with just posting Bible verses, so I will try harder to just live in this flesh, but you will have to be patient with me.
Click to expand...
I do it too. In my mind the verse is clear enough to make my point and as it what I believe why do I need to interject it with words. I will not change it as I believe it speaks for itself. What I won't do is copy whole long texts of scripture because ppl might skim past it.. if they are truly interested they will go to the link I provide and read for themselves.
 
Faithfulservant said:
In my mind the verse is clear enough to make my point and as it what I believe why do I need to interject it with words. I will not change it as I believe it speaks for itself
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But ultimately... not necessarily...
it can be maddening when people surmise that a sequence words will hit someone else's brain just the way they hit their own
we each have different genetics, often different cultures, different experiences, different education, different training, different family experiences, different religious experiences, different things we've seen or read...or been told.. or different things we discovered on our own --
and therefore each of us has a very different brain
hence hermeneutics
hence literary theory and poetics
hence legal theory
hence different tastes in art and music
hence...
 
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