Absolute Truth

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I probably wouldn't read it.


The problem is you don't discuss anything you preach at people that your way is the only way.. that doesn't work here. You can't take someone's deity and reduce Him to a a mere mortal and expect positive reactions.

Christ is the first and the Last, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega, the cause of our being.

That makes Jesus more than a mere mortal.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Man made fundamental doctrine have been and are always ultimately the cause of division, thus this will always be a quandary we face and it is what the Baha'i have and will also face as time rolls on.

But what is a man made doctrine? What you consider a man made doctrine is divine truth to another person, whereas what you consider divine truth is a man made doctrine to them.

the veil of the doctrine.

I'm confused that you seem to be anti-doctrine. I mean, that the Bab was sent by God is a doctrine, a Baha'i doctrine.

My mother actually disowned me for a couple of years, as that is what my mother thoughtthe Bible was telling her to do, tgis of course supported by her fundamental priest and practitioners

I'm sorry to hear that

 

[JustGeorge]

I see religious fundamentalism and orthodoxy, built on doctrine, needs to be addressed and I see it will be addressed on a global scale, not just Christians but all Faiths will face a reckoning.

You're free to feel that way. However, if that's what you really believe(and if so, no problem), coming in and telling people(unless you're super close with them, and they're fairly thick skinned) "you need to address the error of your ways" is likely to get an unfavorable response, and make it less likely that people will listen to you in the future.

Different conclusions are great. Man made fundamental doctrine have been and are always ultimately the cause of division, thus this will always be a quandary we face and it is what the Baha'i have and will also face as time rolls on.

Probably.

You may note, the harsher words about views posted, come from fundamentalist, they are unable to look oudltside the veil of the doctrine.

Some people are not ready, or not interested in doing so. Perhaps what they have works for them. Nothing wrong with that.

My mother actually disowned me for a couple of years, as that is what my mother thoughtthe Bible was telling her to do, tgis of course supported by her fundamental priest and practitioners. It was great the day she realised that was an interpretation of an Old Testament concept that the Love of Christ had made redundant. Great thing was, I then ended up going to church with her a few times, into that same congregation. My mother now released from those world and I wish the best for her always as she traverses all the worlds of God.

Regards Tony

I'm very sorry to hear that, Tony. I'm sure that was painful for both of you. I hope you've both healed, or manage to do so in the future.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe we're not using the same definition of hell.

I doubt it..
Paradise is a place/condition which is desirable..
Hell is a place/condition that is not desirable.

I am talking about the concept of hell most people think of when it is brought up: an everlasting punishment..

Well, what is a punishment?
Do we not punish ourselves on occasions .. "cut off our noses to spite our face"?

As for paradise and the devil, these are concepts I personally don't believe in.

..so, you still haven't explained to me what your concept of afterlife actually is..

 

[Modesty]

I doubt it..
Paradise is a place/condition which is desirable..
Hell is a place/condition that is not desirable.

If you believe in hell as eternal torture, eternal punishment, then that's the hell I'm talking about and that's the hell I find morally reprehensible as a concept.

Well, what is a punishment?
Do we not punish ourselves on occasions .. "cut off our noses to spite our face"?

I'm talking about hell as a punishment from God.

..so, you still haven't explained to me what your concept of afterlife actually is..

A place after death where we are with God. God is good, so the afterlife must be good. I don't claim to know many details.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But you're also very insistent on orthodox Baha'i doctrine.

There are currently, as I see the meaning and intent of the word, no orthodox Baha'i Doctrines.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

Christ is the first and the Last, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega, the cause of our being.

That makes Jesus more than a mere mortal.

Regards Tony

Interesting that you say this.. He is more than a mere mortal. And He said if you deny me I will deny you before My Father.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6-7
Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me...

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you believe in hell as eternal torture, eternal punishment, then that's the hell I'm talking about and that's the hell I find morally reprehensible as a concept.


I'm talking about hell as a punishment from God.

Well .. I assume that you are anthropomorphising God.
i.e. thinking along the lines of God, a person, literally punishing His creatures.

..whereas God is NOT a person.
It is not a simple case of a "person" deciding to do something nasty to a creature.
What it IS a case of, is that what we intend and do, has a consequence.
..or do you think that God should take away our freedoms, and make us creatures
without responsibility?

A place after death where we are with God. God is good, so the afterlife must be good. I don't claim to know many details.

..sounds like "pie in the sky" to me..
A person who purposely acts in an abominable way ends up with those who strive to be good.
Makes no sense .. and is not the reality that I perceive.

I see that people who behave abominably, are held accountable for their actions,
and that it might include imprisonment for an indeterminate time.
Does "God" come into it?
I suppose it does. Civilised people will not tolerate evil in their societies.

 

[Modesty]

There are currently, as I see the meaning and intent of the word, no orthodox Baha'i Doctrines.

Regards Tony

Of course there is. That Bah'ull'ah is from God is an orthodox Baha'i doctrine. Also, covenant breakers as a concept would not exist unless there were doctrines that Baha'i must follow.

 

[Modesty]

Orthodox literally just means "conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved" via Oxford dictionary.

 

[Modesty]

Well .. I assume that you are anthropomorphising God.
i.e. thinking along the lines of God, a person, literally punishing His creatures.

..whereas God is NOT a person.
It is not a simple case of a "person" deciding to do something nasty to a creature.
What it IS a case of, is that what we intend and do, has a consequence.
..or do you think that God should take away our freedoms, and make us creatures
without responsibility?

I've heard these arguments before. The free will defense is not suitable to justify hell. I don't like the modern, wishy washy idea of "oh, God doesn't send people to hell, they choose hell". Nope. No one would choose hell. No action deserves eternal punishment. I find older sources from the Abrahamic religions that discuss hell are more honest in what the doctrine entails: God SENDING people to hell, in 'righteous' wrath.

..sounds like "pie in the sky" to me..
A person who purposely acts in an abominable way ends up with those who strive to be good.
Makes no sense .. and is not the reality that I perceive.

I see that people who behave abominably, are held accountable for their actions,
and that it might include imprisonment for an indeterminate time.
Does "God" come into it?
I suppose it does. Civilised people will not tolerate evil in their societies.

I'm not telling you how to perceive reality. This is how I perceive reality.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I've heard these arguments before. The free will defense is not suitable to justify hell. I don't like the modern, wishy washy idea of "oh, God doesn't send people to hell, they choose hell". Nope. No one would choose hell.

Are you sure?
If a person knows that committing adultery will probably destroy them, does that stop them doing it?
People often choose to behave badly, because they want some instant gratification..
..and then they have to accept the consequences. It is our choice. We need discipline.
I'm not saying it is easy, but if we don't even try...

No action deserves eternal punishment.

You are still missing the point.
We all get what we deserve. i.e. it is a result of our intentions/actions

I find older sources from the Abrahamic religions that discuss hell are more honest in what the doctrine entails: God SENDING people to hell, in 'righteous' wrath.

The result is the same .. extreme discomfort !
..but if your perception is that God is a tyrant, because He is a person torturing people,
and then you lose you faith because of it .. then that is nothing but satan sending you astray.
Who is the loser?

We already know that satan is a loser. Don't listen to his explanation.
His intention is only to mislead.

 

[Modesty]

Are you sure?

Yes.

We all get what we deserve. i.e. it is a result of our intentions/actions

No, I don't think so. I don't think anyone deserves hell.

..but if your perception is that God is a tyrant, because He is a person torturing people,
and then you lose you faith because of it .. then that is nothing but satan sending you astray.
Who is the loser?

We already know that satan is a loser. Don't listen to his explanation.
His intention is only to mislead.

I haven't lost my faith in God? I love God. I don't believe in Satan personally.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I haven't lost my faith in God? I love God. I don't believe in Satan personally.

..so, you see no evil in the world?

 

[TheLightWithin]

..so, you see no evil in the world?

Not believing in Satan does not mean not believing in evil.
There's human evil galore, that even total rationalist/naturalist-materialists can see.
There doesn't HAVE to be supernatural evil for there to be human evil.
We can see human evil all too easily.

 

[Modesty]

..so, you see no evil in the world?

I see a lot of people doing terrible things to other people. I also see a lot of awful things happening without direct human agency, like natural disasters. I don't need to believe in Satan to see that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not believing in Satan does not mean not believing in evil.
There's human evil galore, that even total rationalist/naturalist-materialists can see.
There doesn't HAVE to be supernatural evil for there to be human evil.
We can see human evil all too easily.

Right, yes. Let me explain.
There is not just one devil. There are multiple devils .. from mankind and Jinn.

Amongst mankind and Jinn, there are those who purposely do evil .. they effectively follow in satan's footsteps.
satan is from the Jinn [made of fire/energy as opposed to clay/material.]
he is the original serpent in Genesis.

..so .. supernatural? Only in the sense that we believe in the unseen .. such as Holy Spirit and other spirit creatures that G-d created [including angels].
Angels are not capable of evil. They do not have free-will as do mankind and Jinn.

The "fallen angels" in Christianity, are in fact Jinn .. a misunderstanding.
satan was not always satan .. he was Iblees/Lucifer. He was very pious, and with the angels.
That is why he is such a formidable enemy. Those that have knowledge, but use it to mislead,
are the worst of creation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see a lot of people doing terrible things to other people. I also see a lot of awful things happening without direct human agency, like natural disasters. I don't need to believe in Satan to see that.

Natural disasters?
That is another topic.
The word "natural" can be used in many contexts.
It does not necessarily mean that God is responsible.
God was not responsible for thalidomide attrocities, for example.

,,and is it G-d causing climate change and earthquakes/tsunamis, or is it mankind, with their love of sucking oil out of the earth at such a rate!?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I seem to like this topic .. absolute truth.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I've heard these arguments before. The free will defense is not suitable to justify hell. I don't like the modern, wishy washy idea of "oh, God doesn't send people to hell, they choose hell". Nope. No one would choose hell. No action deserves eternal punishment. I find older sources from the Abrahamic religions that discuss hell are more honest in what the doctrine entails: God SENDING people to hell, in 'righteous' wrath.


I'm not telling you how to perceive reality. This is how I perceive reality.

I understand where you are coming from. I struggled with this for so many years. I couldn't reconcile the loving God that I knew with the wrathful God I was reading about in the bible. It was a really hard and confusing time for me.