Absolute Truth

[juantoo3]

This seems a bit unnecessarily aggressive?

Nothing compared to where I started.

So what? I am insulted and I have to just take it?

Not on my watch. I think I was quite tactful and quite unaggressive. Ask anyone here who knows me, I can be VERY aggressive if the situation warrants.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And you wonder why you're not getting along with the Christians here? That Jesus is God is literally the most fundamental doctrine of orthodox Christianity.

That's why I affirm what I said is that they called Jesus a liar. I don't care what you believe but twisting scripture to say that wasn't His claim IS calling Him a liar.

Maybe fundamental orthodox Christians are the ones that need to mellow.

I have said naught about Jesus Christ, but the Love I have and all Baha'i have for Jesus the Christ.

Which we share with all those that offer that Love.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

I'm not trying to pry, but why do you say there is an afterlife for all,
but no hell?
I mean, there sure is hell for many in this life..

It's not prying, don't worry. I believe in the afterlife for a lot of different reasons. It seems logical to me, if we accept the existence of God. As to why I don't believe in hell, its because I believe in God as our father, who loves us unconditionally. Hell is inconceivable to me. If a god existed that created hell, I would reject that god. Life indeed can be hell, so why would God inflict it on us when we're dead?

 

[Modesty]

Nothing compared to where I started.

So what? I am insulted and I have to just take it?

Not on my watch. I think I was quite tactful and quite unaggressive. Ask anyone here who knows me, I can be VERY aggressive if the situation warrants.

Yikes dude.

 

[Modesty]

Maybe fundamental orthodox Christians are the ones that need to mellow.

But you're also very insistent on orthodox Baha'i doctrine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ask anyone here who knows me, I can be VERY aggressive if the situation warrants.

Really?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Maybe fundamental orthodox Christians are the ones that need to mellow.

Really? Wherever have you seen me butcher your religious writings beyond comprehension. You claim to love Jesus but I say to you this.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I have said naught about Jesus Christ, but the Love I have and all Baha'i have for Jesus the Christ.

Which we share with all those that offer that Love.

Regards Tony

By denying His diety you love the figment of someone's imagination.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

He never directly said I am God. I don't know why.. it's not for me to know but I believe it has something to do with believing by Faith. We believe Jesus is God. You can twist up Christian scripture however you want for your religion but I will call you out on it.

The obvious reason is the One stated, is that Jesus was not God. Yet Jesus was "Annointed" and as theChrist (Annointed One), in the given Station of the Son, Jesus was the perfect reflection of all we can know of God, thus in that Station it is not wrong ro see Christ as God, a focal point of our prayers.

Back in the 1980's I had just become a Baha'i and I read a book called 'Theif in the Night' by William Sears. It had compiled Biblical Prophecy into a clear plausible explanation. I was amazedly by this book and gave it roo my mother, a born again Christian. My mother did not read it and offered it was from the Devil. She was captivated by the Doctrines that Jesus is God.

I decided to shoe my mother the Bible clearly says Jesus is not God and read the Bible front to back noting Biblical references that show Jesus was not God. I ended up with 5 x A4 pages of passages and notes (still have them by the way). I then sat down to write an letter to her, send her a trump card!

I never wrote the letter and it is the same with all that see Jesus as God. If it is so obvious to others that Jesus is not God and there are so many passages that prove this, then nothing I can say will alter their frames of References, they will see what they want to see, as the heart is set on the Name Jesus being God.

In conclusion, Jesus is a man like us, but at the Same time to us the 'Self of God' (annointed) Christ, come to us as the Son of Man and the Son of God, the perfect reflection of the Attributes given Of God, but not tge unknowable, unapproachable Essence of the One undividable God.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

As to why I don't believe in hell, its because I believe in God as our father, who loves us unconditionally..

I get that. I also believe that God is of infinite Mercy.
In fact, I couldn't understand the verses in Qur'an about hell when I first discovered Islam
in my 20's.
Coming from a C of E background, I found it abhorrent.
..but eventually, I came to understand.

Hell is inconceivable to me. If a god existed that created hell, I would reject that god. Life indeed can be hell, so why would God inflict it on us when we're dead?

..so you reject the Creator of the Universe, because He created a universe that contains evil?
Many, many people are suffering due to oppression and war.
Our Lord G-d is Lord of the past, Lord of the present, and Lord of the future.

We cannot, indeed, separate a life hereafter from this present life .. as far as our souls go.
..and that's it .. on the day of judgement, all of our souls will be laid bare.
Nothing will be hidden, as it is in this life [eg. what we say, and what we think might not tally]

Why would G-d inflict suffering upon us in ANY life!?
I think we are supposed to learn something as we go through this life.
We fall over, and we have to pick ourselves up .. and hopefully learn by our mistakes.
G-d does NOT push us over .. it is of our own doing.

The same applies to the life hereafter.
i.e. Some people do not learn .. or refuse to learn

 

[juantoo3]

Really?

Nah...I'm a big fluffy bunny with paper thin skin...

 

[Modesty]

The same applies to the life hereafter.
i.e. Some people do not learn .. or refuse to learn

I will never accept the concept of hell. I believed in it ardently at one point in my life. But no, no temporal misdeed can ever justify an eternal punishment. Steve Skojec, an ex-Catholic, wrote a good article about this, I'll try to find it.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Really? Wherever have you seen me butcher your religious writings beyond comprehension. You claim to love Jesus but I say to you this.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Quandary is, that may be applicable to your stance, in fact I nearly posted it to you.

Such is life, such is faith when it becomes fundamently orthodox and discussion on further possibilities has ceased. (On the other hand I acknowledge that there are God given fundamental unchangeable aspects of Faith)

I do wish you all the best in life and faith. I will most likely leave this forum in peace sooner than later, as it is an echo chamber of orthodoxy, unable to discuss the errors we can fall into when we embrace fundamentalism.

Too the point, but said in Love for all humanity, as we all face the same challenges.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Toxic Religion: Is Christianity Compatible With Positive Mental Health?

Some Christians are trying to make these two seemingly disparate approaches to the human person work together. But there's a longstanding disconnect between them that points to underlying conflict.

skojecfile.steveskojec.com

Read from the line "This suffering is hard, but we deserve worse. We deserve hell.”, about halfway down the page.

 

[Faithfulservant]

The obvious reason is the One stated, is that Jesus was not God. Yet Jesus was "Annointed" and astge Christ (Annointed One), in the given Station of the Son, Jesus was the perfect reflection of all we can know of God, thus in that Station it is not wrong ro see Christ as God, a focal point of our prayers.

Back in the 1980's I had just become a Baha'i and I read a book called 'Theif in the Night' by William Sears. It had compiled Biblical Prophecy into a clear plausible explanation. I was amazedly by this book and gave it roo my mother, a born again Christian. My mother did not read it and offered it was from the Devil. She was captivated by the Doctrines that Jesus is God.

I'm very sure your mother is in heaven praying for your salvation. While you were reading thief in the night she was probably reading the bible.

I decided to shoe my mother the Bible clearly says Jesus is not God and read the Bible front to back noting Biblical references that show Jesus was not God. I ended up with 5 x A4 pages of passages and notes (still have them by the way). I then sat down to write an letter to her, send her a trump card!

I never wrote the letter and it is the same with all that see Jesus as God. If it is so obvious to others that Jesus is not God and there are so many passages that prove this, then nothing I can say will alter their frames of References, they will see what they want to see, as the heart is set on the Name Jesus being God.

I've also listed all the ways Jesus was proven as God but of course you will ignore it as it's not relative to your narrative.

In conclusion, Jesus is a man like us, but at the Same time to us the 'Self of God' (annointed) Christ, come to us as the Son of Man and the Son of God, the perfect reflection of the Attributes given Of God, but not tge unknowable, unapproachable Essence of the One undividable God.

Regards Tony

To say that Jesus was just a man like us is offensive. The sinless spotless Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of the world by His own choice reduced to a sinful corrupt fleshly being with no divinity. Shame on you for everytime you liken Him to yourself. You say you love Him.. I say you don't even know Him.

 

[Modesty]

Such is life, such is faith when it becomes fundamently orthodox and discussion on further possibilities has ceased. (On the other hand I acknowledge that there are God given fundamental unchangeable aspects of Faith)

I do wish you all the best in life and faith. I will most likely leave this forum in peace sooner than later, as it is an echo chamber of orthodoxy, unable to discuss the errors we can fall into when we embrace fundamentalism.

I respect you and your faith, but it's frustrating that you don't seem to get that Christians are literally just doing the exact same thing as you, voicing the doctrines of their faith. You're against orthodoxy but only for Christians? Baha'i is also a religion that has dogmas and doctrines that Baha'i can't disagree with it, but that's not a problem for you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I will never accept the concept of hell. I believed in it ardently at one point in my life. But no, no temporal misdeed can ever justify an eternal punishment. Steve Skojec, an ex-Catholic, wrote a good article about this, I'll try to find it.

Yes .. what is eternal?
Why would it be eternal?
Do you imagine that somebody in this life, who turns away from God, will then sincerely
repent in the next life .. and so join everybody in paradise?

Don't forget .. there are no devils in paradise .. it would not be paradise otherwise.
..and some people go to jail in this life, and never come out!

 

[JustGeorge]

I do wish you all the best in life and faith. I will most likely leave this forum in peace sooner than later, as it is an echo chamber of orthodoxy, unable to discuss the errors we can fall into when we embrace fundamentalism.

I honestly don't see the 'echo chamber'. I see a lot of folks with differing opinions.

Just because someone has reached a different conclusion than yours doesn't mean they're in error.

I, personally, don't see Jesus as God(indeed, Jesus is not a prominent figure in my daily faith). But I don't try to decide who he is for other people.

 

[Modesty]

Yes .. what is eternal?
Why would it be eternal?
Do you imagine that somebody in this life, who turns away from God, will then sincerely
repent in the next life .. and so join everybody in paradise?

Don't forget .. there is devil in paradise .. it would not be paradise otherwise.
..and some people go to jail in this life, and never come out!

Maybe we're not using the same definition of hell. I am talking about the concept of hell most people think of when it is brought up: an everlasting punishment. As for paradise and the devil, these are concepts I personally don't believe in.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Quandary is, that may be applicable to your stance, in fact I nearly posted it to you.

I probably wouldn't read it.

Such is life, such is faith when it becomes fundamently orthodox and discussion on further possibilities has ceased. (On the other hand I acknowledge that there are God given fundamental unchangeable aspects of Faith)

I do wish you all the best in life and faith. I will most likely leave this forum in peace sooner than later, as it is an echo chamber of orthodoxy, unable to discuss the errors we can fall into when we embrace fundamentalism.

The problem is you don't discuss anything you preach at people that your way is the only way.. that doesn't work here. You can't take someone's deity and reduce Him to a a mere mortal and expect positive reactions.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I honestly don't see the 'echo chamber'. I see a lot of folks with differing opinions.

Just because someone has reached a different conclusion than yours doesn't mean they're in error.

I, personally, don't see Jesus as God(indeed, Jesus is not a prominent figure in my daily faith). But I don't try to decide who he is for other people.

I see religious fundamentalism and orthodoxy, built on doctrine, needs to be addressed and I see it will be addressed on a global scale, not just Christians but all Faiths will face a reckoning.

Different conclusions are great. Man made fundamental doctrine have been and are always ultimately the cause of division, thus this will always be a quandary we face and it is what the Baha'i have and will also face as time rolls on.

You may note, the harsher words about views posted, come from fundamentalist, they are unable to look oudltside the veil of the doctrine.

My mother actually disowned me for a couple of years, as that is what my mother thoughtthe Bible was telling her to do, tgis of course supported by her fundamental priest and practitioners. It was great the day she realised that was an interpretation of an Old Testament concept that the Love of Christ had made redundant. Great thing was, I then ended up going to church with her a few times, into that same congregation. My mother now released from those world and I wish the best for her always as she traverses all the worlds of God.

Regards Tony