Tackling the hard questions and quandaries of Faith

[Vasu Devan]

@RJM @Thomas This is why any discussion of religious discussion eventually gets bogged down in "My belief is right, your belief is wrong." We can study texts ad infinitum but that is pure belief when the messenger is no longer with us. You have your beliefs about it. I have mine. No human can change their own belief at will, the belief changes by itself. Try to stop believing in something you believe and you will see this is true. So it is pointless trying to change the religious beliefs of others. A good deed changes more belief than spoken words. Then we have action rather than dry, empty words.

 

[Thomas]

@RJM @Thomas This is why any discussion of religious discussion eventually gets bogged down ...

OK, and I tend to agree, but I was pointing out assumptions which are not widely supported.

Nicaea has nothing to do with the biblical canon, for example – things like that.

We all rationalise our beliefs, but that doesn't stop others pointing out our rationalisations are perhaps founded on a false or flawed premise.

 

[Vasu Devan]

OK, and I tend to agree, but I was pointing out assumptions which are not widely supported.

Nicaea has nothing to do with the biblical canon, for example – things like that.

We all rationalise our beliefs, but that doesn't stop others pointing out our rationalisations are perhaps founded on a false or flawed premise.

Oh a little checkup on that indicates my memory was wrong. I have one of some great meeting in Nicaea of many Xtian groups seeking to be put in Bible but not all were selected. Like Gnostics which is an important group to me. My bad. My brain drugs gimme messed up memory faculty.

 

[RJM]

@RJM @Thomas This is why any discussion of religious discussion eventually gets bogged down in "My belief is right, your belief is wrong." We can study texts ad infinitum but that is pure belief when the messenger is no longer with us. You have your beliefs about it. I have mine. No human can change their own belief at will, the belief changes by itself. Try to stop believing in something you believe and you will see this is true. So it is pointless trying to change the religious beliefs of others. A good deed changes more belief than spoken words. Then we have action rather than dry, empty words.

But the issue is in trying to extract from the texts what they do not say? Sometimes the opposite of what they say? Nobody has to believe them or follow them, but the resurrection, for instance, cannot be dropped from the New Testament.

 

[Vasu Devan]

But the issue is in trying to extract from the texts what they do not say? Sometimes the opposite of what they say. Nobody has to believe them or follow them, but the resurrection, for instance, cannot be dropped from the New Testament.

You cannot drop stuff from the Bible because you believe it wholly. My belief allows me to pick what appeals to me. Your belief vs my belief. I did not say you had to drop resurrection. Only that I did.

 

[RJM]

You cannot drop stuff from the Bible because you believe it wholly. My belief allows me to pick what appeals to me. Your belief vs my belief.

Who said I believe it wholly? Because I say a thing exists does not mean I support it or believe it. I'm merely saying that the incarnation and the resurrection are an essential part of the NT and have been from the earliest times.

They were not added later by Roman emperors or church councils, etc. Jesus's own brother James attested to the resurrection, as did Peter and John

Like Gnostics which is an important group to me.

It's all here:

New Testament Apocrypha – Interfaith

www.interfaith.org

 

[talib-al-kalim]

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that we can't boast of ourselves. Works are a product of our faith but they don't save us. They are an outward proof of God's manifestation in our lives. Words are everything. Jesus taught the parable of the sower on this very topic.

I see five archetypes of people:
A) Have faith AND do good deeds
B) Sin a lot so that the deeds are not good, but have faith and ask for forgiveness
C) Have faith but are misguided in it, hence commit severe sin without recognising it, hence not asking for forgiveness
D) Have no faith in God (maybe atheist or following some esoteric teaching), but have a good heart and try hard to do the best in the sense of the non-religious commandments
E) Have no faith AND sin a lot.

I see the Quran and the Gospel in line promising A and B will enter Jannah (Final Paradise). At least the Quran is also explicit saying E won't be able to enter Jannah.

We have no clear promises for C and D. I wish the best for D, but God will decide, not you or me.

How do YOU embrace Jesus Christ?

Do you know that Christianity is the only religion that doesn't require anything of the believer? Just to simply accept the free gift from God. He did everything.

Jesus has pronounced higher demands on us than any prophet before or after him. I think, a Christian (but also a Muslim and a Baha'i) should try to meet them as far as he can. If you don't, your faith is not real.

Isaiah 64:6 For we all have become like one who is [ceremonially] unclean [like a leper], And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags; We all wither and decay like a leaf, And our wickedness [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing], like the wind, takes us away [carrying us far from God’s favor, toward destruction].

Quote out of context.

There is nothing apart from Jesus Christ that is good. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us with the acceptance of that free gift. Noone else can do that.

No. Read Mark 10:18.

You can literally work till your death and it all means nothing to God without Jesus Christ.

Just my humble opinion based on my faith.

(archetype D) Who said that?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I see five archetypes of people:
A) Have faith AND do good deeds
B) Sin a lot so that the deeds are not good, but have faith and ask for forgiveness
C) Have faith but are misguided in it, hence commit severe sin without recognising it, hence not asking for forgiveness
D) Have no faith in God (maybe atheist or following some esoteric teaching), but have a good heart and try hard to do the best in the sense of the non-religious commandments
E) Have no faith AND sin a lot.

I see the Quran and the Gospel in line promising A and B will enter Jannah (Final Paradise). At least the Quran is also explicit saying E won't be able to enter Jannah.

We have no clear promises for C and D. I wish the best for D, but God will decide, not you or me.


Jesus has pronounced higher demands on us than any prophet before or after him. I think, a Christian (but also a Muslim and a Baha'i) should try to meet them as far as he can. If you don't, your faith is not real.

Jesus has higher demands for believers.. non believers not so much. This is why we know God is good and just. We know the truth if someone doesn't know the truth how can they be held to the same standard.
Luke 12:41-48

Quote out of context.

Huh? Isaiah said that our righteous deeds are filthy rags and you say out of context?

No. Read Mark 10:18.

You took that verse out of context. Read the entire thing. Jesus was affirming that He was God. Don't twist my scripture please. Jesus was without sin and was the only Good human that ever lived

(archetype D) Who said that?

God.

Isaiah 64:6
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.We all fade like a leaf ,and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I use this one again as it's applicable to MY belief. And if you don't know what that means . Women's polluted undergarments are our "righteous works"

Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

but...

Our righteous acts do not produce salvation but are, in fact, evidence of our salvation

James 2:14–26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled…

Jesus

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I don't guess you will agree with any of this because it would make your religion a lie. That's ok! But don't try to make mine a lie by misusing my scriptures to prove your point.

You never see me disparage your prophet or misuse your scriptures. I could easily do both. But that's just ugly and doesn't serve any purpose than to cause division and strife.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..don't try to make mine a lie by misusing my scriptures to prove your point.

The thing is, the Qur'an does not "belong" to anybody .. neither does the Bible.

You may interpret both of them as you see fit .. and so can anybody else.
G-d is aware of those who are sincere, and who is hiding something.
Sometimes, we are not even fully aware of it ourselves.

 

[RJM]

You may interpret both of them as you see fit .. and so can anybody else.

This is of course true. But it would be irritating to Muslims for others to interpret the 'we' as more than one God, or to say that Muhammad (pbuh) was telling his followers to kill all unbelievers? Those meanings could be found in the Quran, taken out of context, but it is obviously not the intended meaning?

 

[Faithfulservant]

The thing is, the Qur'an does not "belong" to anybody .. neither does the Bible.

You may interpret both of them as you see fit .. and so can anybody else.
G-d is aware of those who are sincere, and who is hiding something.
Sometimes, we are not even fully aware of it ourselves.

Do you hate that? That I claim Christian scriptures as mine? As a Christian it is mine.. God wrote it to me. If you reject Him and you do reject Him you also reject His Word. So much jealousy.

 

[Niblo]

I think so too. But Muslims believe the Quran is the (direct) word of God?

Yes. The Qur'an is considered to be the Speech of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

 

[Faithfulservant]

This is of course true. But it would be irritating to Muslims for others to interpret the 'we' as more than one God, or to say that Muhammad (pbuh) was telling his followers to kill all unbelievers? Those meanings could be found in the Quran, taken out of context, but it is obviously not the intended meaning?

Not to mention Aisha and Safiyyah. But we won't go there.

 

[RJM]

Not to mention Aisha and Safiyyah. But we won't go there.

No. I am talking about basically quoting the Qur'an out of context and away from the intended meaning, not about the personal life of the Prophet in this instance

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Do you hate that? That I claim Christian scriptures as mine? As a Christian it is mine.. God wrote it to me. If you reject Him and you do reject Him you also reject His Word. So much jealousy.

First of all, anyone can read and think about any scripture, even if he or she doesn't attribute full authority to it.

Second, I have several bible editions. Those books are mine, but I don't own the contents. You don't, either.

Third, both @muhammad_isa and myself, we believe in God and we accept His Word.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it would be irritating to Muslims for others to interpret the 'we' as more than one God, or to say that Muhammad (pbuh) was telling his followers to kill all unbelievers?

Ha! Have you been reading my posts in the "other" forum?
One has to try to control oneself, and explain why they might be wrong.

eg. the "Royal we" in language constructs etc.

 

[RJM]

Ha! Have you been reading my posts in the "other" forum?
One has to try to control oneself, and explain why they might be wrong.

eg. the "Royal we" in language constructs etc.

Funny, but no I have not! Hang in there bro

 

[RJM]

The eventual issue is that the whole meaning and direction of the Qur'an places the interpretation of 'we' as many Gods out of the context. Taken overall, it would be a misguided reading of the text, imo. That is clearly not the intended meaning, overall?

Obviously the same applies to certain readings of the New Testament?

 

[RJM]

However, I must admit I do find the Quranic 'we' to be interesting and worth deeper thought?

Why does the God who goes to such great length to declare Himself as singular and without associates, then go on to declare Himself in the plural?

 

[muhammad_isa]

However, I must admit I do find the Quranic 'we' to be interesting and worth deeper thought?

Why does the God who goes to such great length to declare Himself as singujar and without associates, then go on to declare Himself in the plural?

The way I see it, is that "One God" rules out idol worship .. polytheism.
It does not specifically tell us the NATURE of God, or what God is.
..but we know from the Qur'an that God is not a person.