The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I restarted the OP as I have come to terms with my own error in the first OP. I see I started a conversation about the Light of God in a very negative and not a positive way.

The dawn of a new day brings the rising of the sun in stages and many positive things happen with this event, after all, the Light that is arising brings forth life, heat, growth. The negative, that is, the lack of the light of the Sun is what eventually unfolds in death and decay, it is not connected to the growth.

I have offered these thoughts recently, but these thoughts should have introduced this topic.

Prior to the dawn of a new day, signs of the sun about to rise commence in this material world. There are those thay are up before the first signs of light can be seen, then more arise and see the dawn of the light. The birds start to sing as the rays of the sun penetrate the darkness of the night. Much metephor can be offered.

There has always been signs leading up to the declaration of a Prophet Messenger, one is signs in the heavens, a star that guides the way. This is recorded in the Holy Books.

In this version of the OP, it is seemingly unrelated events that herald the light that I will introduce for consideration as viable signs we could look for.

I will state some events that would support the OP subject, that can be further discussed.

The 1843 Comet.
The 1844 Declaration of the Bab.
The 1844 prediction of Christs return by William Miller in America.
The 1844 Telegraph Message of "What has God Wrought" the day after the Bab's declaration, sent in America.
The 1844 'Adict of Toleration' which opened the door for the return of the Jews to the Holy Land.
The 1845 return of Biela's Comet and the dramatic split of the comet into two tails, One being brighter than the other.

Link to a discussion on this comet.

Signs in Heavens during the Appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

It is said in Scripture and Tradition that at the time of the birth or announcement of every Messenger of God, a star or a sign appears in...

bahaihistoricalfacts.blogspot.com

This is worth a read, as this OP is introducing the possibility of Twin Messengers.

There is much to discuss. Please join in if you are interested in exploring this aspect of faith. It can discuss events that have heralded all the Prophets and Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but the 19th century (the 18th century as well, actually) was an absolute hotbed of prophecy. You have Baha'i, but you also have Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Joanna Southcott, Ahmadiyya, Cyrus Teed, etc. I could go on and on. I can't really comment on the spiritual element of this topic, as I haven't been personally convinced of any prophets. But it's a fascinating topic; why did this century produce so many new religions, and so many messiahs/prophets? Your linking of Miller and Baha'u'llah is interesting; is this a Baha'i belief, or is it something you just personally believe?

 

[Modesty]

List of founders of religious traditions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a link to a list for anyone interested in this topic.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but the 19th century (the 18th century as well, actually) was an absolute hotbed of prophecy. You have Baha'i, but you also have Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Joanna Southcott, Ahmadiyya, Cyrus Teed, etc. I could go on and on. I can't really comment on the spiritual element of this topic, as I haven't been personally convinced of any prophets. But it's a fascinating topic; why did this century produce so many new religions, and so many messiahs/prophets? Your linking of Miller and Baha'u'llah is interesting; is this a Baha'i belief, or is it something you just personally believe?

This is a key meditation. Yes, why was there an increase of claimants around this time.

I see that is explained by the observation in the material world, as the Spiritual World is not able to be explained in anything but material metephor.

We are born of the human Spirit, which is a reflection from the Holy Spirt,the image we are made in. Each and everyone of us are connected.

The influence of the Holy Spirit interacts with us in our relative capacity. As God sends the Light, the Messenger, there are some that think that light eminates from them, there are some influenced by the rising light, not aware of the source.

I see William Miller had a pure searching heart and as such was influenced by the Dawn of God's Messenger. The issue being, they were caught up in personal expectations, based on preconceived expectations, they thought they would personally witness the return and be taken up with Christ, they did not think they had to search the world for it.

Another interesting fact is that the German Templers moved to Mount Carmel while Baha'u'llah was in prison in Akka. They expected Christ to return to Mt Carmel. Baha'u'llah visited them in their homes which line the streets below the Shrine of the Bab. One can ask why they also did not see Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

List of founders of religious traditions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a link to a list for anyone interested in this topic.

I also see this is important, the further the sun rises, the more the heat penetrates the souls of men. Each is influenced as per their relative capacity and spiritual state of being.

Many influenced by the Spirit of the age, may think this inspiration is a product of their own self, or that it is God talking through them.

The issue is, it is God that chooses the Messengers and there is a vast difference as to how the Message is received and delivered between a True and false prophet.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Many influenced by the Spirit of the age, may think this inspiration is a product of their own self, or that it is God talking through them.

The issue is, it is God that chooses the Messengers and there is a vast difference as to how the Message is received and delivered between a True and false prophet.

It's hard for me to respond to this, because I don't believe in the same prophets you do. I'm not sure if I even believe prophecy or prophets exist at all. But I am very interested in how one would identify a real prophet. It's tricky because if one already accepts a belief system, I think you're preconditioned to accept certain prophets and prophecies and reject others, even if in reality there's no more evidence for one or the other. For example, I formerly believed in many saints and their prophecies but I rejected prophets and their messages from other religions because I didn't think anybody but someone from within the Church could speak reliably on such things. As it stands I think I would need a LOT of evidence before believing any prophet from any religion, especially one claiming to fulfil ancient prophecies. It's why I abandoned Eckankar, a religion I was considering converting to until recently.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It's hard for me to respond to this, because I don't believe in the same prophets you do. I'm not sure if I even believe prophecy or prophets exist at all. But I am very interested in how one would identify a real prophet. It's tricky because if one already accepts a belief system, I think you're preconditioned to accept certain prophets and prophecies and reject others, even if in reality there's no more evidence for one or the other. For example, I formerly believed in many saints and their prophecies but I rejected prophets and their messages from other religions because I didn't think anybody but someone from within the Church could speak reliably on such things. As it stands I think I would need a LOT of evidence before believing any prophet from any religion, especially one claiming to fulfil ancient prophecies. It's why I abandoned Eckankar, a religion I was considering converting to until recently.

I see our only preconditions are ones we impose upon ourselves from our nature and nurture.

The material and spirtual worlds are an oyster, ready to open and enjoy.

This advice is from Baha'u'llah

"..God is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.... He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His mission than the proof of His Own Person.."

This is how God's will unfolds in this Matrix.

So the person is the proof, they will stand out from the rest of us, they will stand out from false claimant's. The Messengers were born of the Holy Spirit, their knowledge already innate.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Where is Nostradamus when you need him?

Prophets and prophecies come and go, and as @Modesty says, it rather depends on one's inclination.

Likewise there have been all manner of 'signs', positive or negative, depending on one's pov.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg – I admire your optimism – but just for accuracy's sake –

The 1843 Biela's Comet.
This was not Biela's Comet, rather it's generally called the Great Comet of 1843, or less prosaically C/1843 D1 (or the Great March Comet).
It's a member of the Kreutz Sungrazers.

The 1845 return of Biela's Comet and the 1845 dramatic split of the comet into two tails, One being brighter than the other.
Actually this was a dramatic break-up, and the end of the comet that orbited every 6.6 years. The two tails alternated in brightness, suggesting some kind of rotation. The break-up might have happened as early as 1842. It was not sighted on later expected dates, but in 1872 a meteor shower was observed where Biela was predicted to appear, mostly likely debris of the decayed comet.

 

[Modesty]

Prophets and prophecies come and go, and as @Modesty says, it rather depends on one's inclination.

This is why I don't think prophecy is typically the best motivation to convert. It definitely can help facilitate faith, don't get me wrong, but I think for the most part you need a baseline of faith because you will always be able to find a natural explanation for any fulfilled prophecy. Though of course that doesn't mean they're absolutely not from God, but they're not ironclad either.

One interesting case study of a prophecy is the Three Days of Darkness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Days_of_Darkness). I knew people who believed it, though I never did. It definitely is not a mainstream Catholic belief, I actually think its most popular with sedes. But I'm mentioning it because the people who the prophecy allegedly originated with is Anna Maria Taigi and then later Marie Julie Jahenny; they both lived very roughly around the same time as the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Where is Nostradamus when you need him?

Prophets and prophecies come and go, and as @Modesty says, it rather depends on one's inclination.

Likewise there have been all manner of 'signs', positive or negative, depending on one's pov.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg – I admire your optimism – but just for accuracy's sake –

The 1843 Biela's Comet.
This was not Biela's Comet, rather it's generally called the Great Comet of 1843, or less prosaically C/1843 D1 (or the Great March Comet).
It's a member of the Kreutz Sungrazers.

The 1845 return of Biela's Comet and the 1845 dramatic split of the comet into two tails, One being brighter than the other.
Actually this was a dramatic break-up, and the end of the comet that orbited every 6.6 years. The two tails alternated in brightness, suggesting some kind of rotation. The break-up might have happened as early as 1842. It was not sighted on later expected dates, but in 1872 a meteor shower was observed where Biela was predicted to appear, mostly likely debris of the decayed comet.

Thank you Thomas. So a Comet heralded the Bab one year before the Declaration and another comet heralded Baha'u'llah, one that split in two.

The two tails even if they alternated in brightness is a good Metephor for the Twin Messengers, the Meteor shower a good Metephor for the Message breaking up into the many lights of the believers.

The key is, signs in the heaven do herald the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Where is Nostradamus when you need him

The Biblical Prophecies must be fulfilled.

How many claimant's can even remotely hint at fulfilling any Biblical Passage, in any meaningful way, yet the Bab and Baha'u'llah literally fulfil many, even if a person is not willing to accept them as Messengers.

Examples.

Isaiah 35:1-2 "The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God."

Baha'u'llah means "Glory of the Lord", or "Glory of God". 1800's Akka and Carmel were barren wilderness. This Prophecy literally fulfilled, look at Carmel now.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

The Banishment of Baha’u’llah and the bring of the remains of the Bab to Akka / Haifa, literally fulfilled this Prophecy.

That is just the start, many more Torah and New Testament Prophecies are applicable.

Be very honest Thomas, how many claimant's have such evidence available?

Even Jesus does not have as much supporting evidence in Torah Prophecies.

This is another mystery of God's Will unfolding in this Matrix, why were men such as William Miller, who passionately did predict 1844, yet still did not look at how Jesus would return as Christ, at the end of Ages?

Why am I passionate, well the well-being of all humanity, its peace and security lay squarely on the recognition of the Councels of the Pen of the Most High, given for this age.

I can change no heart, that is God's Mercy and Bounty to give to each of us, I can only Champion our One and only Loving and Merciful God and live myself in peace and goodwill to all humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This is why I don't think prophecy is typically the best motivation to convert. It definitely can help facilitate faith, don't get me wrong, but I think for the most part you need a baseline of faith because you will always be able to find a natural explanation for any fulfilled prophecy. Though of course that doesn't mean they're absolutely not from God, but they're not ironclad either.

One interesting case study of a prophecy is the Three Days of Darkness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Days_of_Darkness). I knew people who believed it, though I never did. It definitely is not a mainstream Catholic belief, I actually think its most popular with sedes. But I'm mentioning it because the people who the prophecy allegedly originated with is Anna Maria Taigi and then later Marie Julie Jahenny; they both lived very roughly around the same time as the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The 3 days of darkness were seen as a sign.

The key now is, what is it we should be looking for in a Messenger from God?

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Baha'u'llah means "Glory of the Lord", or "Glory of God".

But didn't he give that name to himself? So how does that constitute a fulfilled prophecy? Couldn't he have just read that passage of the Bible and gave himself that name? I'm not saying that's what happened, but I don't think that particular aspect of Baha'u'llah can be counted as a fulfilled prophecy.

Why am I passionate, well the well-being of all humanity, its peace and security lay squarely on the recognition of the Councels of the Pen of the Most High, given for this age.

I really don't want to start another flame war, but I really don't like this statement. The peace and security of all humanity lays squarely on us all recognizing Baha'u'llah??

 

[Modesty]

The key now is, what is it we should be looking for in a Messenger from God?

This is an interesting question. From the point of view of a non-Abrahamic, I don't know what a "Messenger of God" would look like to me. I don't believe we need messengers or prophets, necessarily. I think God can and has directly spoken to ordinary people from the beginning of time, without any middle men needed. To accept a prophet's message, I think I would probably need to see pretty concrete proof.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But didn't he give that name to himself? So how does that constitute a fulfilled prophecy? Couldn't he have just read that passage of the Bible and gave himself that name? I'm not saying that's what happened, but I don't think that particular aspect of Baha'u'llah can be counted as a fulfilled prophecy.

The Name came about In 1848, at the Conference of Badasht, he took the title Baháʼ (بهاء), Arabic for "glory" or "splendour". All Bab'i were given New Names at that Conference, the Bab was responsible for many of those Names, I do not think it is known if the Bab named Baha'u'llah. It is a while since I have read the History.

This is Biblical, because each Messenger is Named By God "The Mouth of the Lord" so they are named by a/the Prophet.

Isaiah 62 1The nations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will bestow. You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God. No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate.

This also talks if the time when the Holy Land is no longer desolate, which I mentioned in a reply to Thomas.

There is also more passages on the Naming of Messengers. Sorry have to go to work.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I really don't want to start another flame war, but I really don't like this statement. The peace and security of all humanity lays squarely on us all recognizing Baha'u'llah??

No flame or war is needed, it is a statement made by Baha'u'llah. You are able to tackle the difficult questions and statements in the light of discussion. That was another OP, started for this very reason.

No one has to accept it, but it needs to be offered. It may be the absolute truth and only you are able to determine that for your own self.

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." ("Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 286)

"Peace is not only possible, it is inevitable"

". The Great Peace towards which people of goodwill throughout the centuries have inclined their hearts, of which seers and poets for countless generations have expressed their vision, and for which from age to age the sacred scriptures of mankind have constantly held the promise, is now at long last within the reach of the nations. For the first time in history it is possible for everyone to view the entire planet, with all its myriad diversified peoples, in one perspective. World peace is not only possible but inevitable..." Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Another great Prophecy

Ezekiel 3:23Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face.

Baha'u'llah means " Glory of the Lord", who was seen in Prophecy.

Many more passages.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

No one has to accept it, but it needs to be offered. It may be the absolute truth and only you are able to determine that for your own self.

But for those of us who have determined it isn't the absolute truth, such as myself? I understand Baha'i believe in a future where everyone, or at least most, will be Baha'i but I don't understand how that is meant to occur. I know personally I will never convert, and I'm also fairly confident that is true of many others. So how is this Most Great Peace supposed to occur? I'm puzzled by it.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But for those of us who have determined it isn't the absolute truth, such as myself? I understand Baha'i believe in a future where everyone, or at least most, will be Baha'i but I don't understand how that is meant to occur. I know personally I will never convert, and I'm also fairly confident that is true of many others. So how is this Most Great Peace supposed to occur? I'm puzzled by it.

That is a great question, basically the answer is that God's Plan works with all our choices. God gives us the chance to be part of the change, or we roll with the change.

My first attempt at this OP was focussed the negative aspects,so I really do not want to go there again.

Basically our collective choices as humanity unfold in God's Plan. Every choice has a consequence, be it positive or negative.

As mankind continues with their own choices, this is what Baha'u'llah offered.

“The winds of despair”, Bahá’u’lláh wrote, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”

It is the convulsions that will change us, look at the recent natural disasters, these will continue all around the world, they will increase in severity.

How to prevent those convulsions has been offered, we needed ro work together, we needed to stop raping the earth of its resources, we needed to treat every person as our brothers and sisters, we needed ro dissarm, stop recreational alcohol and drugs, etc etc, it is all recorded by the "Pen of the Most High".

We basically know that humanity will not embrace the Lesser Peace without experiencing a massive convulsion, yet to come. Many quotes available.

So the observation you have made, saying people will not change, I see God allows us to control our destiny and at this time we are creating an environment for a perfect storm, one where the remaining humans will all have to recover from, they will be asking God for help, as most do in times of peril.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm wondering why this thread isn't in the Baha'i subforum?