The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[RJM]

@Faithfulservant
My only interest in responding to @Tony Bristow-Stagg is to expose his NT manipulations for everyone else to see.

The thread is not in the Christian forum or even the Abrahamic forum. My view is let him hoist himself on his own petard? But am open to suggestions from others? His constant proselytizing isn't converting anyone -- he's really just turning people off, imo

I don't know why the other Baha'i folk don't ask him to tone it down ...

 

[Thomas]

Thank you Thomas. So a Comet heralded the Bab one year before the Declaration and another comet heralded Baha'u'llah, one that split in two.

No, because if that was the case then all comets would be heralds of something, wouldn't they?

I mean Biela came round every six years, before its break-up ... that's an awful lot of heralding.

'And a year before' is rather stretching credibility ... what if it was two years before, or five, or 10?

The two tails even if they alternated in brightness is a good Metephor for the Twin Messengers, the Meteor shower a good Metephor for the Message breaking up into the many lights of the believers.

Or, the break-up heralds a flash-in-the-pan – and then nothing?

The key is, signs in the heaven do herald the Messengers.
Regards Tony

In which case, can you list the messengers heralded on the six-year appearance of Comet Biela prior to yours?

 

[Thomas]

How many claimant's can even remotely hint at fulfilling any Biblical Passage, in any meaningful way, yet the Bab and Baha'u'llah literally fulfil many, even if a person is not willing to accept them as Messengers.

Tony, I'm sure you're well aware that a vast number of claimants down through the ages have made the same claims as you regarding the the fulfilment of Biblical promises and prophecies ...

I have raised the issue of the nature of the Paraclete in the New Testament, and demonstrated the errors and flaws in arguments offered in the Baha'i interpretations of Scripture – which you are unable to address – that you cannot validate your interpretation of the Johannine texts undoes this argument.

Baha'u'llah means "Glory of the Lord", or "Glory of God".

As pointed out by @Modesty , a self-elected title.

That, too, speaks volumes. Neither Abraham nor Moses, Jesus nor Muhammed (pbuh) took such grandiose titles for themselves. True messengers show humility before God.

This Prophecy literally fulfilled, look at Carmel now.

OK, if you think Isaiah was extolling the virtues of electricity and commercial interests; that material wealth signifies 'the glory of the Lord' or 'the splendour of God' then we are coming from two different worlds.

 

[Thomas]

This is Biblical, because each Messenger is Named By God "The Mouth of the Lord" so they are named by a/the Prophet.

Let's be clear, a prophet is declared by the Word of the Lord on the Prophet's lips – not that the Prophet is called 'the mouth of the Lord' by name, that's an analogy.

This also talks if the time when the Holy Land is no longer desolate, which I mentioned in a reply to Thomas.

Again, I don't think God had material wealth in mind.

 

[Modesty]

The article you provided was of a Badminton Coach turned prophet.

As previously offered, Messengers are known as something extraordinary right from Birth, or even prior to birth. They are, even as children, immersed in the Spirit and are known by virtues.

Interestingly, this is how the Dalai Lama is chosen.

Being a badminton coach doesn't make prophethood less likely though! I mean, Jesus was a carpenter. And he was much more than a prophet, according to the NT.

 

[Modesty]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg, I have a question about the article you linked. The author states "The holy Scriptures of all faiths had spoken of Twin-Revelations that would appear at the 'time of the end.'". Do you know which scriptures he's referring to?

 

[Thomas]

As previously offered, Messengers are known as something extraordinary right from Birth, or even prior to birth. They are, even as children, immersed in the Spirit and are known by virtues.

Mmm, no, not really.

Abraham doesn't appear until he's an old man. Moses might well have been a child hidden and found by an Egyptian princess, but we have no record of his childhood and youth, other than being raised at court. We have little or no biographical details of many of the Prophets of Israel. Jesus, of course, is the Incarnation, but that is a unique status. The Prophet himself (pbuh) had a most unremarkable childhood, other than continual disruption, being farmed out to various relatives after his parents died ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The view isn't incorrect for that person.. your view isn't incorrect for you . But to tell someone their view is incorrect because they don't know their own scriptures is highly incorrect. You don't understand that is what you are doing.

Once again I ask why this thread isn't in the Baha'i forum?? You are hijacking the Christian faith and scriptures and the very God we worship to validate your own. You take the Christian scriptures and twist them into a perversion that highly offensive to me. It's not what you do or what you believe it's how you do it.

@RJM Do I get a vote here? This isn't a thread for discussing it's a thread to push Baha'i on anyone that chooses to participate.

The topic is about the Mystery of God’s Will unfolding in this Matrix.

The topic requires one to accept many Faiths are part of God's Will, not only Christianity, not only Islam, not only Moses, not only the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

The key is, it is those Messagengers that are God’s Will unfolding in this Matrix.

You have a vote by not participating in the topic.

Jesus offered that the Jews did not know Him as Christ because they did not understand Moses. All Messengers tell humanity that they do not understand their Messenger if they reject the Messengers who have subsequently come.

I just share this concept, which has also been given by Muhammad and the Bab, as well as Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg, I have a question about the article you linked. The author states "The holy Scriptures of all faiths had spoken of Twin-Revelations that would appear at the 'time of the end.'". Do you know which scriptures he's referring to?

Off the top of my head Christianity and Islam both await Christ in this way.

Remember Jesus said Elijah always comes first.

Elijah prepares the way for the Messenger to come. There are many papers written on this and what specific faiths are expecting, sorry I am out of time today.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Mmm, no, not really.

Abraham doesn't appear until he's an old man. Moses might well have been a child hidden and found by an Egyptian princess, but we have no record of his childhood and youth, other than being raised at court. We have little or no biographical details of many of the Prophets of Israel. Jesus, of course, is the Incarnation, but that is a unique status. The Prophet himself (pbuh) had a most unremarkable childhood, other than continual disruption, being farmed out to various relatives after his parents died ...

Luckily, more records were kept in this age.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm wondering why this thread isn't in the Baha'i subforum?

It is about God's Will unfolding in this Matrix.

All Faiths are a product of this Will, not just Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

the Mystery of God’s Will unfolding in this Matrix.

What does this exactly mean?

 

[Modesty]

It is about God's Will unfolding in this Matrix.

All Faiths are a product of this Will, not just Baha'i.

But will you accept other faiths' interpretations of God's will in this thread if they contradict the Baha'i faith and listen to them and express interest in them without trying to constantly bring the conversation back to a solely Baha'i view? I'm genuinely asking because the topic of prophecy and knowing God's will is a very interesting one, but I don't want to participate if its just going to be about accepting Baha'u'llah's message.

 

[Faithfulservant]

It is about God's Will unfolding in this Matrix.

All Faiths are a product of this Will, not just Baha'i.

Regards Tony

I do not agree that your god is my God . But I have a right to believe that. I do not believe all faiths are the same as my faith and I have a right to believe that. You aren't doing anything to convince me otherwise.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Off the top of my head Christianity and Islam both await Christ in this way.

Remember Jesus said Elijah always comes first.

Elijah prepares the way for the Messenger to come. There are many papers written on this and what specific faiths are expecting, sorry I am out of time today.

Regards Tony

I believe you said somewhere that John the Baptist was Elijah or something to that effect. That you knew where Elijah was buried. It's been awhile but I remember that was the first time I was thinking oh boy.. here we go.

 

[Faithfulservant]

The topic is about the Mystery of God’s Will unfolding in this Matrix.

Like @Modesty asked.. what does that mean?

The topic requires one to accept many Faiths are part of God's Will, not only Christianity, not only Islam, not only Moses, not only the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

You are the only one posting with this requirement. Must be frustrating.

The key is, it is those Messagengers that are God’s Will unfolding in this Matrix.

You are the only one that believes this.. so with any pushback on this you must be assuming you are teaching some great big truth. Is anyone biting?

You have a vote by not participating in the topic.

I'll post wherever I want but based on your intentions.. I really believe it belongs in Baha'i for you to do your thing comfortably.. otherwise you are going to have people like me pushing back and calling you on your bs.

Jesus offered that the Jews did not know Him as Christ because they did not understand Moses. All Messengers tell humanity that they do not understand their Messenger if they reject the Messengers who have subsequently come.

I just share this concept, which has also been given by Muhammad and the Bab, as well as Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Lol

John 1:11-13
King James Version
He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Whose name? Jesus. Not Bab not Muhammad not Baha'lu'llah.

it feels like some heavy plagiarism going on in your religion.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Nobody has to believe a single word of the New Testament if they don't want to, but it absolutely does not support Baha'u'llah as the returned Christ, imo

To be fair, AFAIK a Jewish thinker would be likely to say "Nobody has to believe a word of the Hebrew bible if they don't want to or cannot believe it, but it does not support Jesus as the messiah in my opinion or the opinion of my community/rabbi/historical rabbis/prophets" (my understanding of Jewish thinking on this matter esp as explicated by Rabbi Toviah Singer)

 

[TheLightWithin]

Yes all references to the 'Glory of God', is references to Baha’u’llah, who came in the Station of the Father.

There is much proof. That is really all I can offer.

This is extremely interesting, but I'm really confused about Bahaullah or anyone coming in the Station of the Father.
What does it mean?
I'm already confused enough with a lifetime of trying to figure out what it means to incarnate as the Son
(overall I'm more convicted of something closer to a Jewish view of God, so many other Abrahamic theories throw me)
I think proof is hard to come by in terms of metaphysical claims.
What is the proof?
I don't feel contentious about it in any way, just confused and wanting to probe the ideas.

 

[RJM]

To be fair, AFAIK a Jewish thinker would be likely to say "Nobody has to believe a word of the Hebrew bible if they don't want to or cannot believe it, but it does not support Jesus as the messiah in my opinion or the opinion of my community/rabbi/historical rabbis/prophets" (my understanding of Jewish thinking on this matter esp as explicated by Rabbi Toviah Singer)

I don't deny it, and I don't do it. Or try not to ...

I don't deny it may be. Jesus clearly does not meet the Jewish Old Testament criteria of the Messiah. There are people who spend their whole lives trying to find Messiah references to Jesus in the OT.

It doesn't matter to me. The Christ has gone on to greater meaning than simply 'the annointed' Jewish Messiah, with the sacrifice of the cross and resurrection and ascension and tearing of the temple veil -- although nobody is required to believe these things.

Thread:

If Jesus suddenly came to earth, would he approve of modern Christianity?

modern. Christians are not in the presence of God today. that makes all the difference. Todays christians love one another as they are. God loves us from what we are. One is the love of the world. One one is the love of God.. I confess I did not understand your message above. You say that...

www.interfaith.org

 

[TheLightWithin]

Why is it Baha'i manipulation, but not Christian manipulation?

Jewish thinkers, AFAIK, consider Christians to "manipulate" Hebrew scriptures.

AFAIK Muslims tend to think both Judaism and Christianity have "corrupted" scriptures (correct if wrong but that is what i have often read)

Christianity views heterodox Christians as not Christians, and newer Abrahamic faiths as straying far from the truth and adding to it (Islam, Bahai, Mormonism Rasti etc)

Within Judaism there are divisions, Karaite Jews and Samaritans being, if I am not mistaken, really other Abrahamic faiths.

Other Abrahamic faiths like Druze and Yazidi are obscure enough in the eyes of the world to not be taking part in the drama - Rasti too really

Faiths outside of the Abrahamic faith are considered to not have true revelation.

Although in theory if one adheres to Noahide laws you're not in trouble in the eyes of Jewish thinkers.
Everyone points at everyone else for having it "wrong"

My grandpa used to rave about how "The CATHOLICS" and "THESE CHURCHES" (all the Protestant churches) "Don't really teach what is in the Bible"

That's what the WCG (Armstrongism) taught.

What else is new?