The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

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Are you sure? If there's no doctrine, there's no teaching. :eek:
I was not very good at English, lousy actually. This one word I get wrong often. Dogma is the word I mix it up with.

My understanding is that the Pure Word is infallible guidance. So a Dogma made upon that Word given as infallible guidance, would likewise need to be given by an infallible source.

My wife who is very good at English gets great amusement from my use of words. I also have great difficulty pronouncing words.

Wait to you hear me try to say Muslim names!

Regards Tony
 
Some Questions Answered – 1 (in rhetorical sense only).
The Promulgation of Universal Peace – 0
Gleanings – 0
The World Order of Baha'u'llah – 0
That is because, as I offered, this indwelling is explained in different terms.

Abdu’l-Baha has explain the threefold distinction between the physical nature that humans have in common with animals, the human subjective intellect and this divine indwelling spirit:

"Man is endowed with an outer or physical reality. It belongs to the material realm, the animal kingdom, because it has sprung from the material world. This animalistic reality of man he shares in common with the animals.

…But man is endowed with a second reality, the rational or intellectual reality; and the intellectual reality of man predominates over nature… Yet there is a third reality in man, the spiritual reality… That power is conferred upon man through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is an eternal reality, an indestructible reality, a reality belonging to the divine, supernatural kingdom…

That celestial reality, the third reality of the microcosm, delivers man from the material world… Escaping, he will find an illuminating reality, transcending the limited reality of man and causing him to attain to the infinitude of God… and submerging him in the sea of the rays of the Sun of Reality. – Foundations of World Unity, p. 51.

the Bible offers a meditation

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that man hath no pre-eminence above a beast; for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust. Who knoweth the spirit of man whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast whether it goeth downward to the earth? – Ecclesiastes 3:19-21.

Baha'u'llah answers that.

"And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty." – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 155-156.

Regards Tony
 
Thank you

Just to be clear: Muhammad (pbuh) obviously did not claim to be Jesus -- but neither did he claim to be the new Christ, or Annointed One, or Messiah -- however one chooses to interpret the Christ. Muhammad does not allow prayer to be directed through himself to Allah, in the same way that Baha'u'llah does. The idea is anathema to Muslims.
The prayer for Muslims is the Qibla in Mecca and the Bahai Qibla at Bahji.

Think of it as a magnifying glass. When we concentrate our prayers to God on one point, thay have more intensity as they join others also concentrating on that One Point.

Regards Tony
 
One of the mysteries of how God's Will unfolds in this Matrix, is that it unfolds despite our acceptance or rejection of God and the Messengers.

The consequences for us, are of our own making.

Regards Tony
 
Thank you for clearing that up Niblo.

Myself reflections had to make some changes in my own self. Let's face it, I do not speak Arabic, I have only read the Quran, I am mostly ignorant of Islam. I am really only able to give alternate explanations as to what the Quran offered.

So I am like most believers in a Messenger, I am captivated by the Love, the Trustworthiness and Truthfulness of the Messenger and the example they emulated.

I can only offer that the Bab was Imprisoned and executed, and Baha'u'llah likewised Imprisoned, and exiled under influence of the Mullah, as they were unable to publicly refute what both the Bab and Baha'u'llah offered.

Everytime they tried, they realised their impotency to do so, they were unable to disprove anything that was offered. The Shah sent his greatest Scholar, Siyyid Yahya to interview the Bab, the story is in support of that commet just made.


Vahid

This is how I found faith that Muhammad is a Messenger from God. (Peace be upon Him). From hero's such as this.

Regards Tony
Thank you for your gracious replies, Tony. May the Beloved reward you.

Blessings, and very best regards.
 
One of the mysteries of how God's Will unfolds in this Matrix, is that it unfolds despite our acceptance or rejection of God and the Messengers.

The consequences for us, are of our own making.
So, what are the consequences for me of absolutely not accepting Baha'u'llah as the new Christ in the station of the Father, whose writings now become apex truth for all humanity for at least 800 years, and effectively superseding Jesus the Christ, now consigned and reduced to just another messenger?

Please do tell because I really would like to know, but anticipate with interest what form the Baha'i swerve will take, in place of a straight reply to a straight question?
 
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So, what are the consequences for me of absolutely not accepting Baha'u'llah as the new Christ in the station of the Father, whose writings now become apex truth for all humanity for at least 800 years, and effectively superseding Jesus the Christ, now consigned and reduced to just another messenger?

Please do tell because I really would like to know, but anticipating with interest what form the Baha'i swerve will take, in place of a straight reply to a straight question?
God leaves us unto our own selves.

Regards Tony
 
"Answers" like this are what makes it impossible to have a proper conversation, imo
That answer is the truth RJM. Our rejection of the Messengers results in being left to our own selves, we become the dead burying the dead

It is as one did not embrace Jesus the Christ, can you imagine a greater punishment?

Regards Tony
 
That answer is the truth RJM. Our rejection of the Messengers results in being left to our own selves, we become the dead burying the dead

It is as one did not embrace Jesus the Christ, can you imagine a greater punishment?

Regards Tony
One could also 'offer' Jesus the true Christ's caution against being hoodwinked by the many false self-declared christs and prophets that He warned would arise after him.

Is it necessary to link the passages again?
 
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"Answers" like this are what makes it impossible to have a proper conversation, imo

EDIT: One could also 'offer' Jesus the true Christ's caution against being hoodwinked by the many false self-declared Christs and prophets that He warned would arise after him
That answer is the truth RJM. Our rejection of the Messengers results in being left to our own selves, we become the dead burying the dead

It is as one did not embrace Jesus the Christ, can you imagine a greater punishment?

Regards Tony
A quote to support my reply.

"...Had the world been of any worth in His sight, He surely would never have allowed His enemies to possess it, even to the extent of a grain of mustard seed. He hath, however, caused you to be entangled with its affairs, in return for what your hands have wrought in His Cause. This, indeed, is a chastisement which ye, of your own will, have inflicted upon yourselves, could ye but perceive it..."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

Regards Tony
 
One could also 'offer' Jesus the true Christ's caution against being hoodwinked by the many false self-declared Christs and prophets that He warned would arise after him.

Is it necessary to link the passages again?
That is Faith RJM. God tests us. If we think we are exempt because we say we beleive, then we are greatly mistaken.

Regards Tony
 
A quote to support my reply.

"...Had the world been of any worth in His sight, He surely would never have allowed His enemies to possess it, even to the extent of a grain of mustard seed. He hath, however, caused you to be entangled with its affairs, in return for what your hands have wrought in His Cause. This, indeed, is a chastisement which ye, of your own will, have inflicted upon yourselves, could ye but perceive it..."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209
That is Faith RJM. God tests us. If we think we are exempt because we say we beleive, then we are greatly mistaken.
Are you implying that everyone who does not accept Baha'u'llah as Christ the Father is ignorant and a crass materialist without the wit to discriminate about spiritual thoughts? That everyone except Baha'i simply follow blind indoctrination?

Including of course all those here on IO involved in these conversations?
 
Dogma is the word I mix it up with.
Easily done, as there are so many negative connotations attached to the term nowadays.

My understanding is that the Pure Word is infallible guidance. So a Dogma made upon that Word given as infallible guidance, would likewise need to be given by an infallible source.
We're not far apart.

Mine is that the Sacred Scriptures offer infallible guidance on matters of faith and morals (not on science, etc.,), and that the Tradition is the authentic interpreter of Scripture.
 
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Are you implying that everyone who does not accept Baha'u'llah as Christ the Father is ignorant and a crass materialist without the wit to discriminate about spiritual thoughts? That everyone except Baha'i simply follow blind indoctrination?

Including of course all those here on IO involved in these conversations?
It is applicable to everyone RJM, it is not aimed at anyone personally. The passage speaks for itself, you can consider it or pass it by.

I quote the fuller passage, I have experienced this myself RJM, it is applicable to me.

"...Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth. Had the world been of any worth in His sight, He surely would never have allowed His enemies to possess it, even to the extent of a grain of mustard seed. He hath, however, caused you to be entangled with its affairs, in return for what your hands have wrought in His Cause. This, indeed, is a chastisement which ye, of your own will, have inflicted upon yourselves, could ye but perceive it. Are ye rejoicing in the things which, according to the estimate of God, are contemptible and worthless, things wherewith He proveth the hearts of the doubtful?"

* Gleanings From The Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pages: 207 - 209 *

RegardsTony.
 
That is Faith RJM. God tests us. If we think we are exempt because we say we beleive, then we are greatly mistaken.

It is applicable to everyone RJM, it is not aimed at anyone personally. The passage speaks for itself, you can consider it or pass it by.

I quote the fuller passage, I have experienced this myself RJM, it is applicable to me.

"...Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth. Had the world been of any worth in His sight, He surely would never have allowed His enemies to possess it, even to the extent of a grain of mustard seed. He hath, however, caused you to be entangled with its affairs, in return for what your hands have wrought in His Cause. This, indeed, is a chastisement which ye, of your own will, have inflicted upon yourselves, could ye but perceive it. Are ye rejoicing in the things which, according to the estimate of God, are contemptible and worthless, things wherewith He proveth the hearts of the doubtful?"

* Gleanings From The Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pages: 207 - 209 *
Is there anywhere else where people have tried so sincerely to engage with you and talk about your Baha'i beliefs? I'd say people here have had a good chance over multiple threads to get a quite in-depth look into the subject, and that they are intelligent enough and with a degree of 'spiritual awareness' enough to qualify them to form a reasonable personal assessment?
 
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Is there anywhere else where people have tried so sincerely to engage with you and talk about your Baha'i beliefs? I'd say people here have had a chance over multiple threads to get a very good look at the subject and that they are intelligent enough and with a degree of 'spiritual awareness' enough to qualify them to form a reasonable personal assessment?
It is hard for us to look at our own selves RJM. That passage unfolded in my life, so I will offer I posted just for my own self.

One can think they have a strong and valid faith, but the tests are a great bounty, that passage is a great bounty,it has been for me.

Regards Tony
 
It is hard for us to look at our own selves RJM ...
Stop preaching, Tony. It's boring.

How much do you really know about me or anyone else around here? What do you know? Do you know what I have been through on my own road? Me or anyone else?

Do you think Baha'i is the only faith that warns against materialism?

I really think you should expand your studies beyond just the Baha'i writings and try to learn a little bit about other religions and beliefs, an opportunity also afforded by these forums.

It is notable in all these threads that you've probably never ONCE asked anyone else to talk about their own beliefs, or showed the slightest interest, but only used the boards as a pulpit to evangelize.

Just my own opinion
 
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That is because, as I offered, this indwelling is explained in different terms.
But the texts you cite are just statements about the various 'realities' – they don't address the question.

Baha'u'llah answers that.
"And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death...
I'm not talking about after death, I'm talking about while in the flesh.

+++

Further on, Abu'l-baha says:
"... Every soul who believed in Jesus Christ became revivified and resuscitated through this spirit, attained to the zenith of eternal glory, realized the life everlasting, experienced the second birth and rose to the acme of good fortune."
Why the past tense?

He fails to grasp the Eternal Word is Ever Present: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8).

From a broader viewpoint, in the teachings of the Great Traditions – of the Taoist, the Hindu or the Buddhist, for example, then there is the same principle, of salvation, or deliverance, or enlightenment – of realisation – expressed in its own terms. Every Traditional Path is complete and entire to itself, and is self-sufficient in that regard, and as it rises in the Eternal, it never ceases in its effectiveness and effulgence.

(His many assertions that the followers of the Great Religions are just mimicing their fathers, going through the motions and following empty rituals and practices is just ignorant and actually quite offensive.)

+++

The final paragraph under the heading 'Eternal Unity' says:
"There is also the divine unity or entity which is sanctified above all concept of humanity. It cannot be comprehended nor conceived because it is infinite reality and cannot become finite."
But no-one says that ... ?

Here Abu'l-baha just sets out a list of logical fallacies which none of the Great Traditions – in their orthodox forms – adheres to. So why do it? It's just hyperbole.

What he does not say is what the other Traditions do say –

While the Absolute remains inviolate, there must be something of the Absolute about the relative, even if that cannot be put into words – or more accessibly put: the Infinite must include in itself the finite, because if it does not include that 'other', it is neither Absolute nor Infinite.

"Human minds are incapable of surrounding that reality ... "
Indeed so, but what of the sanctified soul which finds itself 'surrounded' by the Transcendent? What of that?

"... because all thoughts and conceptions of it are finite, intellectual creations and not the reality of divine being which alone knows itself."
Hence the saints and sages talk of something beyond finite, intellectual comprehension. Beyond words and images. Where is mention of that? The Darkness of God. The Cloud of Unknowing. What of that?

This 'dark knowing' gave rise to the style of language which, in the Christian Tradition, we call apophasis, a 'negative theology' in which nothing can be affirmed of the utterly Transcendent – this is what the Sage means when he writes "The Tao that can be spoken of is not the enduring and unchanging Tao"; this is what is meant by the Sanskrit 'neti-neti' of Hindu Jnana Yoga and the Advaita.

"The reality of divinity is sanctified above this degree of knowing and realization. It has ever been hidden and secluded in its own holiness and sanctity above our comprehending ... the Sun of Reality never descends from its own highest point and station.
Then he really doesn't comprehend the Christian Tradition, the Incarnation, the Christ-hymn of Philippians 2:6-11.

"According to Phil. 2:6 et seq., the same Christ, who was in the figure of God and was equal to God took the form of a servant and became like unto man. This Kenosis, on account of the absolute immutability of God, cannot be understood as a renunciation of the Divine Nature, but only as a renunciation (in His human nature) of the Divine Glory. To the Divine nature which He retained, He added the human nature ... The Christ who appeared in the form of a servant is therefore a Divine Person, who possesses the Divine as well as a human nature."
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. "The Unity of Christ's Person" on kenosis.

But this is by-the-by ... we're still talking past each other, and I see no hope of it being otherwise.

Let's call it there.
 
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