The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Niblo]

Here are a couple of Ahadith.

Hazrat Mirza wrote as follows:

``Of all the leaders of Tasawwuf that there have been till the present day, not even one has disagreed with the point that in this religion the path to become the likes of prophets is open, as the Holy Prophet Muhammad has given the glad tidings for spiritual and godly learned persons that `the Ulama of my nation are like the Israelite Prophets'. The words of Abu Yazid Bustami given below, which are recorded in Tazkirat al-Auliya by Farid-ud-Din Attar, and are also found in other reliable works, are on this basis, as he says: `I am Adam, I am Seth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Moses, I am Jesus, I am Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all these brothers of his.' Similarly, Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani, in his book Futuh al-Ghaib, refers to this point, i.e. that man, by leaving his ego and annihilating himself in God, becomes the like, rather the very form, of the prophets.'' (Izala Auham, pp. 258--260)

``The Holy Quran clearly gives this instruction, and in the opening chapter gives us the hope of becoming the likes of prophets. God exhorts us to pray to Him five times a day and beseech Him to give us guidance so that we may become the like of Adam; the like of Seth, the prophet of God; the like of Noah, the second Adam; the like of Abraham, the friend of God; the like of Moses, the recipient of God's word; the like of Jesus; and the like of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and Ahmad, and the like of every truthful and faithful one.'' (ibid., p. 257)

``Ponder over this, that all the eternal fountains of spiritual life have come into the world through the Holy Prophet Muhammad. This is the nation [i.e. Muslim nation] which, though not having any prophets (nabi) in it, has those who receive the word of God like prophets, and though not having any messengers (rasul) in it, has those who show God's clear signs like messengers. It has rivers of spiritual life flowing in it, and none can compete with it.'' (Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 224)

``God's ancient way cannot be denied, viz., that He gives the name of one to another on account of spiritual similarity. He who has the nature of Abraham is Abraham in God's sight, he who has the nature of Moses is Moses in God's sight, and he who has the nature of Jesus is Jesus in God's sight. And he who has a share of all these has all these names applied to him.'' (Izala Auham, p. 412)

Same with your other observations Niblo. Baha'u'llah offers in the Kitab-i-iqan that it is God that tests His servants. It is up to us to find out why two passages may seem to conflict. In the end, if we search long enough, we will find the conflict is all ours, a gift to enable us to change.

Regards Tony

These are not ʼaḥādīth, Tony. They are the words of yet another false ‘Messiah’; namely Mirzā Ghulām Aḥmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya.

Ahmad references the ‘Futuh al-Ghaib (The Revelations of the Unseen)’ by Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani.

I have this work, and can assure you that Sayyid Jilani makes no mention of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) having declared himself to be ‘Jesus’.

Perhaps Ahmad was confused by the Seventy-Fifth Discourse in the ‘Futuh’, in which Jilani writes:

‘Tasawwuf is based on eight qualities (l) Generosity like that of Prophet Abraham; (2) Cheerful submission like that of Prophet Isaac; (3) Patience like that of Prophet Jacob; (4) Prayer like that of Prophet Zachariah; (5) Poverty like that of Prophet John; (6) Wearing of woollen dress like that of Prophet Moses; (7) Travelling about like that of Prophet Jesus; and (8) Religious poverty like that of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and all the rest).’

The generous person is like Abraham. The one who cheerfully submits to the Will of Allah (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is like Isaac. The patient person is like Jacob. The prayerful person is like Zachariah; and so on.

You will have heard of the Welsh singer, Tom Jones.

I am very much like Tom, because I am also Welsh; because I also come from Glamorgan; and because – like Tom – I know the lyrics to the song ‘Delilah’.

Sooooo very alike, Tom and I.

I suspect that even a Bahai would acknowledge – albeit reluctantly – that there is a world of difference between the declaration: ‘I am like Tom Jones’; and the declaration ‘I am Tom Jones!’

Mirza writes:

`The Holy Quran clearly gives this instruction, and in the opening chapter gives us the hope of becoming the likes of prophets.’ (‘Ainah Kamalat Islam’; my emphasis).

Here is the relevant sūrah

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed,
those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ Al-Fatiha ‘The Opening’).

This surah is very important in Islamic worship, being an obligatory part of the daily prayer, repeated several times during the day.

As you can see, it makes no mention at all about folk becoming the ‘likes of prophets.’

Mohammad Hashim Kamali – former Professor of Law at the International Islamic University of Malaysia – writes:

‘Muslim jurists and ʿulamā’ have developed elaborate methodologies for the authentification of ḥadīth with the purpose precisely to enhance the scope of scientific objectivity in their conclusions. This they have done in full awareness that in no other branch of Islamic learning has there been as much distortion and forgery as in ḥadīth.’ (‘A Textbook of Hadith Studies: Authenticity, Compilation, Classification and Criticism of Hadith’).

The Professor reminds us that: ‘The ʿulamā’ of ḥadīth and jurisprudence have laid down a variety of conditions for the authentification of ḥadīth.’ (Ibid.).

Among these conditions is that:

‘The text and message of the ḥadīth must be consistent with the Qur’ān. Should there be a clear case of conflict in such a way that no reasonable compromise and interpretation can remove it, the ḥadīth is rejected.’ (Ibid. my emphasis).

I repeat:

Nowhere in the Qur’an does Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refer to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as ‘Jesus’.

Nowhere in the Qur’an does the Prophet as refer to himself ‘Jesus’.

Nowhere in the ʼaḥādīth does the Prophet refer to himself as ‘Jesus’.

Here are some ʼaḥādīth for you to consider:

‘Narrated Malik bin Sasaa: That the Prophet talked to them about the night of his Ascension to the Heavens. He said, “(Then Gabriel took me) and ascended up till he reached the second heaven where he asked for the gate to be opened, but it was asked, ‘Who is it?’ Gabriel replied, ‘I am Gabriel.’ It was asked, ‘Who is accompanying you?’ He replied, ‘Muhammad.’ It was asked, ‘Has he been called?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ When we reached over the second heaven, I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and Jesus who were cousins. Gabriel said, ‘These are John (Yahya) and Jesus, so greet them.’ I greeted them and they returned the greeting saying, ‘Welcome, O Pious Brother and Pious Prophet!”’ (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 640’).

‘Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651).

‘It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?’ (Sahih Muslim Book, Hadith Number 0290).

And from the ‘Al-Muwatta’ of Imam Malik Ibn Anas:

‘Yaḥyā related to me from Mālik from Nāfi‘ from ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said, “I dreamt one night that I was at the Ka‘ba, and I saw a dark man like the most handsome of dark men you have ever seen. He had hair which reached to between his ears and his shoulders like the most excellent of such hair that you have ever seen. He had combed his hair and water was dripping from it. He was leaning on two men or on the shoulders of two men doing ṭawāf around the Ka‘ba. I asked, ‘Who is this?’ I was told, ‘The Messiah, son of Maryam.’"

‘Mālik related to me from Ibn Shihāb from Muḥammad ibn Jubayr ibn Muṭ‘im that the Prophet ﷺ said, “I have five names. I am Muḥammad. I am Aḥmad. I am al-Māḥī (the effacer) by whom Allah effaces disbelief. I am al-Ḥāshir (the gatherer) before whom people are gathered. I am al-‘Āqib (the last).”’

Whatever one makes of these ʼaḥādīth, one thing is obvious: There is a clear distinction between the persons of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and that of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). The former does not claim to be the latter.

Blessings.

 

[RJM]

Whatever one makes of these ʼaḥādīth, one thing is obvious: There is a clear distinction between the persons of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and that of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). The former does not claim to be the latter.

Thank you

Just to be clear: Muhammad (pbuh) obviously did not claim to be Jesus -- but neither did he claim to be the new Christ, or Annointed One, or Messiah -- however one chooses to interpret the Christ. Muhammad does not allow prayer to be directed through himself to Allah, in the same way that Baha'u'llah does. The idea is anathema to Muslims.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you

Just to be clear: Muhammad (pbuh) obviously did not claim to be Jesus -- but neither did he claim to be the new Christ, or Annointed One, or Messiah -- however one chooses to interpret the Christ. Muhammad does not allow prayer to be directed through himself to Allah, in the same way that Baha'u'llah does. The idea is anathema to Muslims.

Correct. Very well said.

Blessings.

 

[Niblo]

There is only one Messiah; and he, of course, ls Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).

 

[RJM]

There is only one Messiah; and he, of course, ls Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).

Certainly Muhammad (pbuh) did not claim to be the returned Messiah.

Baha'i believe that Baha'u'llah was the returned Messiah, and construct explanations for fulfilment of the Biblical prophecies about the Christ returning not as the suffering servant but as the King in glory upon the clouds surrounded by the hosts of heaven in judgement at the end-of-days and resurrection of the dead, etc.

 

[RJM]

The belief is that the Christ was embodied, or reflected, in Jesus the man during the time of Jesus, but that the Christ is also reflected in all the other 'messengers' because all the messengers are equal. It reduces Jesus Christ the Son to just another messenger, and not only minimizes the message of His life and crucifixion and resurrection, but also gives Baha'u'llah an even higher station as Christ the Father, imo

Anyway ...

 

[Niblo]

Certainly Muhammad (pbuh) did not claim to be the returned Messiah.

Indeed not. Nor does the Qur'an name him 'Messiah'.....nor any other prophet, save Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).

 

[RJM]

Indeed not. Nor does the Qur'an name him 'Messiah'.....nor any other prophet, save Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).

However the understanding of the nature of the Christ since Jesus has gone beyond the meaning simply of 'the anointed one' or Jewish Messiah?

 

[RJM]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

I don't think its fair to expect you to have to stay out of the continuing discussion on this thread. Please don't feel bound by your earlier comment to stay silent, imo

 

[Niblo]

However the understanding of the nature of the Christ since Jesus has gone beyond the meaning simply of 'the anointed one' or Jewish Messiah?

For those who (sincerely, and in all conscience) believe him to be both 'wholly man' and 'wholly God', then yes.

 

[RJM]

For those who (sincerely, and in all conscience) believe him to be both 'wholly man' and 'wholly God', then yes.

The thing is that, with the exception of the Hindu Krishna (as the incarnation of Vishnu) none of the other 'messengers' seem to claim any special status or higher human qualities for themselves, in the same way that is attributed rightly or wrongly to Jesus as the Christ, through or to whom prayers are directed to the Father.

Although Baha'I doctrine seems to insist that all the messengers are equal, Baha'u'llah alone amongst these 'true prophets' or messengers takes on the mantle of the Christ -- as do of course several 'false prophets' and other self-declared new Christ figures?

 

[RJM]

For those who (sincerely, and in all conscience) believe him to be both 'wholly man' and 'wholly God', then yes.

I'm not sure this is the case.

There are non-trinitarians who nevertheless accept the Pauline and Johannine writings. The Arian debate was never about the divinity of the incarnate and resurrected Christ, but about how exactly to define it, imo.

But that's water too deep for this thread and several other dedicated Trinity and Arius threads already exist?

 

[Niblo]

The thing is that, with the exception of the Hindu Krishna (as the incarnation of Vishnu) none of the other 'messengers' seem to claim any special status or higher human qualities for themselves, in the same way that is attributed rightly or wrongly to Jesus as the Christ, through or to whom prayers are directed to the Father.

Although Baha'I doctrine seems to insist that all the messengers are equal, Baha'u'llah alone amongst these 'true prophets' or messengers takes on the mantle of the Christ -- as do of course several 'false prophets' and other self-declared new Christ figures?

This is correct.

 

[Niblo]

I'm not sure this is the case.

But that's water too deep for this thread and several other dedicated Trinity and Arius threads already exist?

Agreed!

 

[Thomas]

We will not find a "doctrine" ...

Are you sure? If there's no doctrine, there's no teaching.

Without a shared creed, dogmas and doctrines, 'religion' becomes a matter of personal preference, a matter of taste, subject to fads and fancies and the fashion of the day. Religion is whatever one chooses it to be.

A wise man – G K Chesterton – said:
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don't know it.”

+++

the Writings explain the indwelling of the Spirit in a different frame of reference.

That's what I keep telling you.

+++

Abdul'baha offered this in a talk on the Proofs and Arguments for the Existence of God
"......Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence ... "

One mention – can you construe and support teaching of sanctification from it?

Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi use the word 'Indwelling'.

Some Questions Answered – 1 (in rhetorical sense only).
The Promulgation of Universal Peace – 0
Gleanings – 0
The World Order of Baha'u'llah – 0

Shoghi Effendi in 'The World Order of Baha’u’llah' offered this
"....The indwelling Spirit of God which, in the Apostolic Age of the Church, animated its members, the pristine purity of its teachings, the primitive brilliancy of its light, will, no doubt, be reborn and revived as the inevitable consequence of this redefinition of its fundamental verities, and the clarification of its original purpose.

So the Baha'i belief that the Holy Spirit which animated the early Church at Pentecost has ceased to function ... has effectively died ... and will 'be reborn and revived' in the Baha'i Faith, but will undergo the 'inevitable consequence of this redefinition of its fundamental verities'?

And you wonder why people reject your frame of reference?

Two things:
One: This assumes Christ lied.
Two: Why does the 'inevitable redefinition' by Baha’u’llah exclude individual sanctification – the whole point and purpose of Christ's mission?

For the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh--if we would faithfully appraise it--can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ...."

But it clearly is – if it is not in variance or conflict, there's no need of 'inevitable redefinition' is there? A new or re-defining something is a variant? And when the variant says less than the original ... what does that say?

Again – where is a doctrine of individual sanctification?

 

[Thomas]

Although Baha'I doctrine seems to insist that all the messengers are equal, Baha'u'llah alone amongst these 'true prophets' or messengers takes on the mantle of the Christ -- as do of course several 'false prophets' and other self-declared new Christ figures?

I rather think this is because the Baha'i authorities are utterly ignorant of the doctrines of religions besides the Abrahamics.

I've looked for references to Buddhism and Hinduism and so far have found none, other than a general pejorative stance:
"The nations and religions are steeped in blind and bigoted imitations. A man is a Jew becausehis father was a Jew. The Muslim follows implicitly the footsteps of his ancestors in belief andobservance. The Buddhist is true to his heredity as a Buddhist. That is to say, they profess religious belief blindly and without investigation, making unity and agreement impossible ..."
(‘Abdu’l‑Bahá Promulgation of Universal Peace, Talk at the Tremont Temple at the Unitarian ConferenceBoston, Massachusetts, No.52, 22 May 1912)

"He whose father was a Zoroastrian is a Zoroastrian. He whose father was a Buddhist remains aBuddhist. The son of a Muslim continues a Muslim, and so on throughout. Why is this? Because they are slaves and captives of mere imitation. They have not investigated the reality of religionand arrived at its fundamentals and conclusions. The Jew, for instance, has not proved the validity of Moses by investigating reality. He is a Jew because his father was a Jew. He imitates the forms and belief of his fathers and ancestors. There is no thought or mention of reality. And so it is with the other peoples of religion."
(Ibid, No.93 17 August 1912, Talk at Green Acre, Eliot, Maine. Notes by Edna McKinney)

This is typical of the comments regarding other religions scattered throughout the talks. Suffice to say the claims are clearly nonsense, and as ill-informed as they are offensive – if this is his way towards the 'Promulgation of Universal Peace' then I don't see how offending other religions advances that ideology.

I find no address to Buddhism or Hinduism in "Gleanings" or "World Order of Baha'u'llah" but there is this in "Some Questions Answered"
"Question: To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?
Answer: Buddha also established a new religion and Confucius renewed the ancient conduct and morals, but the original precepts have been entirely changed and their followers no longeradhere to the original pattern of belief and worship. The founder of Buddhism was a preciousBeing Who established the oneness of God, but later His original precepts were gradually forgotten and displaced by primitive customs and rituals, until in the end it led to the worship of statues and images."

And a couple of mentions of Hinduism – but they are worse than the above.

I think it's telling that for someone who is supposed to be speaking from all truth and all knowledge – there is no acknowledgement of non-Abrahamic Traditions in any meaningful way.

 

[Niblo]

I rather think this is because the Baha'i authorities are utterly ignorant of the doctrines of religions besides the Abrahamics.

I've looked for references to Buddhism and Hinduism and so far have found none, other than a general pejorative stance:
"The nations and religions are steeped in blind and bigoted imitations. A man is a Jew becausehis father was a Jew. The Muslim follows implicitly the footsteps of his ancestors in belief andobservance. The Buddhist is true to his heredity as a Buddhist. That is to say, they profess religious belief blindly and without investigation, making unity and agreement impossible ..."
(‘Abdu’l‑Bahá Promulgation of Universal Peace, Talk at the Tremont Temple at the Unitarian ConferenceBoston, Massachusetts, No.52, 22 May 1912)

"He whose father was a Zoroastrian is a Zoroastrian. He whose father was a Buddhist remains aBuddhist. The son of a Muslim continues a Muslim, and so on throughout. Why is this? Because they are slaves and captives of mere imitation. They have not investigated the reality of religionand arrived at its fundamentals and conclusions. The Jew, for instance, has not proved the validity of Moses by investigating reality. He is a Jew because his father was a Jew. He imitates the forms and belief of his fathers and ancestors. There is no thought or mention of reality. And so it is with the other peoples of religion."
(Ibid, No.93 17 August 1912, Talk at Green Acre, Eliot, Maine. Notes by Edna McKinney)

This is typical of the comments regarding other religions scattered throughout the talks. Suffice to say the claims are clearly nonsense, and as ill-informed as they are offensive – if this is his way towards the 'Promulgation of Universal Peace' then I don't see how offending other religions advances that ideology.

I find no address to Buddhism or Hinduism in "Gleanings" or "World Order of Baha'u'llah" but there is this in "Some Questions Answered"
"Question: To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?
Answer: Buddha also established a new religion and Confucius renewed the ancient conduct and morals, but the original precepts have been entirely changed and their followers no longeradhere to the original pattern of belief and worship. The founder of Buddhism was a preciousBeing Who established the oneness of God, but later His original precepts were gradually forgotten and displaced by primitive customs and rituals, until in the end it led to the worship of statues and images."

And a couple of mentions of Hinduism – but they are worse than the above.

I think it's telling that for someone who is supposed to be speaking from all truth and all knowledge – there is no acknowledgement of non-Abrahamic Traditions in any meaningful way.

Excellent. 🎖

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How do you square this behaviour with your claim that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?

Good morning Niblo. God does as God Will's and Muhammad is Hos Messenger. (Peace be upon Him)

Sadiq does not have to be a biological son, just as the Son of God is not a biological fact.

Good afternoon, Tony.

I trust you are well; and ask that you forgive my delayed reply.

Your reply is in response to Post 87, in which I offer a quote from Baha’u’llah’s ‘Kitáb-i-Íqán’:

Here is the quote, in its setting (my emphasis):

‘It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favor with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

This paragraph is on the final page of the ‘Iqán’; a little above Baháʼu'lláh’s list of reference notes.

In total, there are such 186 notes; none of which refer to the ‘Aválim’.

The fact of the matter is that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had only three sons (Qasim; Abdullah; and Ibrahim). All three died in infancy.

I repeat: Was Baháʼu'lláh not aware of this; or, being aware, why does he lie?

How do you square this behaviour with your claim that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?

Blessings.

I know you have a couple more replies after this that I will read.

This exchange was good for me, I had to examine my own self. I needed to realise that I do not approach Faith as a scholar, I never will be able to do this. Especially with the Quran, as I have only read it, not studied it, nor do I speak Arabic or Persian.

I also realised I do not have to address every concern a person has in regards to Baha'u'llah, as it is God that test His servants, as it is God thay allows them to pursue their own agenda, the is no compulsion in religion.

So you asked "How do you square this behaviour with your claim that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?"

I do that by embracing Baha'u'llah and the Message Baháʼu'lláh gave from God. This is a Message I have immersed myself in for a fee years, I had to find my own self before I was able to submit to the fact that Baha'u'llah was Trustworthy and Truthful, and that required me to sub.it to God's Laws.

My greatest ally in this is history. That People of the Book always reject the Messengers and always accuse the Messengers.

So I have noted other things said in posts I am yet to fully read, I will continue my reply when I read the remaining replies.

Spoiler: Food for thought

3:70 O People of the Book! Why do you reject the signs of Allah while you bear witness ˹to their truth˺?
3:71 O People of the Book! Why do you mix the truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly?
3:72 A group among the People of the Book said ˹to one another˺, “Believe in what has been revealed to the believers in the morning and reject it in the evening, so they may abandon their faith.
3:73 And only believe those who follow your religion.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Surely, ˹the only˺ true guidance is Allah’s guidance.” ˹They also said,˺ “Do not believe that someone will receive ˹revealed˺ knowledge similar to yours or argue against you before your Lord.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Indeed, all bounty is in the Hands of Allah—He grants it to whoever He wills. And Allah is Ever-Bountiful, All-Knowing.”
3:74 He chooses whoever He wills to receive His mercy. And Allah is the Lord of infinite bounty.
3:75 There are some among the People of the Book who, if entrusted with a stack of gold, will readily return it. Yet there are others who, if entrusted with a single coin, will not repay it unless you constantly demand it. This is because they say, “We are not accountable for ˹exploiting˺ the Gentiles.” And ˹so˺ they attribute lies to Allah knowingly.
3:76 Absolutely! Those who honour their trusts and shun evil—surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.
3:77 Indeed, those who trade Allah’s covenant and their oaths for a fleeting gain will have no share in the Hereafter. Allah will neither speak to them, nor look at them, nor purify them on the Day of Judgment. And they will suffer a painful punishment.
3:78 There are some among them who distort the Book with their tongues to make you think this ˹distortion˺ is from the Book—but it is not what the Book says. They say, “It is from Allah”—but it is not from Allah. And ˹so˺ they attribute lies to Allah knowingly.
3:79 It is not appropriate for someone who Allah has blessed with the Scripture, wisdom, and prophethood to say to people, “Worship me instead of Allah.” Rather, he would say, “Be devoted to the worship of your Lord ˹alone˺”—in accordance with what these prophets read in the Scripture and what they taught.
3:80 And he would never ask you to take angels and prophets as lords. Would he ask you to disbelieve after you have submitted?
3:81 ˹Remember˺ when Allah made a covenant with the prophets, ˹saying,˺ “Now that I have given you the Book and wisdom, if there comes to you a messenger confirming what you have, you must believe in him and support him.” He added, “Do you affirm this covenant and accept this commitment?” They said, “Yes, we do.” Allah said, “Then bear witness, and I too am a Witness.”
3:82 Whoever turns back after this, they will be the rebellious.
3:83 Do they desire a way other than Allah’s—knowing that all those in the heavens and the earth submit to His Will, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him they will ˹all˺ be returned?
3:84 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord—we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.”
3:85 Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers.
3:86 How will Allah guide a people who chose to disbelieve after they had believed, acknowledged the Messenger to be true, and received clear proofs? For Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

These are not ʼaḥādīth, Tony. They are the words of yet another false ‘Messiah’; namely Mirzā Ghulām Aḥmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya.

Ahmad references the ‘Futuh al-Ghaib (The Revelations of the Unseen)’ by Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani.

I have this work, and can assure you that Sayyid Jilani makes no mention of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) having declared himself to be ‘Jesus’.

Perhaps Ahmad was confused by the Seventy-Fifth Discourse in the ‘Futuh’, in which Jilani writes:

‘Tasawwuf is based on eight qualities (l) Generosity like that of Prophet Abraham; (2) Cheerful submission like that of Prophet Isaac; (3) Patience like that of Prophet Jacob; (4) Prayer like that of Prophet Zachariah; (5) Poverty like that of Prophet John; (6) Wearing of woollen dress like that of Prophet Moses; (7) Travelling about like that of Prophet Jesus; and (8) Religious poverty like that of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and all the rest).’

The generous person is like Abraham. The one who cheerfully submits to the Will of Allah (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is like Isaac. The patient person is like Jacob. The prayerful person is like Zachariah; and so on.

You will have heard of the Welsh singer, Tom Jones.

I am very much like Tom, because I am also Welsh; because I also come from Glamorgan; and because – like Tom – I know the lyrics to the song ‘Delilah’.

Sooooo very alike, Tom and I.

I suspect that even a Bahai would acknowledge – albeit reluctantly – that there is a world of difference between the declaration: ‘I am like Tom Jones’; and the declaration ‘I am Tom Jones!’

Mirza writes:

`The Holy Quran clearly gives this instruction, and in the opening chapter gives us the hope of becoming the likes of prophets.’ (‘Ainah Kamalat Islam’; my emphasis).

Here is the relevant sūrah

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed,
those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ Al-Fatiha ‘The Opening’).

This surah is very important in Islamic worship, being an obligatory part of the daily prayer, repeated several times during the day.

As you can see, it makes no mention at all about folk becoming the ‘likes of prophets.’

Mohammad Hashim Kamali – former Professor of Law at the International Islamic University of Malaysia – writes:

‘Muslim jurists and ʿulamā’ have developed elaborate methodologies for the authentification of ḥadīth with the purpose precisely to enhance the scope of scientific objectivity in their conclusions. This they have done in full awareness that in no other branch of Islamic learning has there been as much distortion and forgery as in ḥadīth.’ (‘A Textbook of Hadith Studies: Authenticity, Compilation, Classification and Criticism of Hadith’).

The Professor reminds us that: ‘The ʿulamā’ of ḥadīth and jurisprudence have laid down a variety of conditions for the authentification of ḥadīth.’ (Ibid.).

Among these conditions is that:

‘The text and message of the ḥadīth must be consistent with the Qur’ān. Should there be a clear case of conflict in such a way that no reasonable compromise and interpretation can remove it, the ḥadīth is rejected.’ (Ibid. my emphasis).

I repeat:

Nowhere in the Qur’an does Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refer to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as ‘Jesus’.

Nowhere in the Qur’an does the Prophet as refer to himself ‘Jesus’.

Nowhere in the ʼaḥādīth does the Prophet refer to himself as ‘Jesus’.

Here are some ʼaḥādīth for you to consider:

‘Narrated Malik bin Sasaa: That the Prophet talked to them about the night of his Ascension to the Heavens. He said, “(Then Gabriel took me) and ascended up till he reached the second heaven where he asked for the gate to be opened, but it was asked, ‘Who is it?’ Gabriel replied, ‘I am Gabriel.’ It was asked, ‘Who is accompanying you?’ He replied, ‘Muhammad.’ It was asked, ‘Has he been called?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ When we reached over the second heaven, I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and Jesus who were cousins. Gabriel said, ‘These are John (Yahya) and Jesus, so greet them.’ I greeted them and they returned the greeting saying, ‘Welcome, O Pious Brother and Pious Prophet!”’ (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 640’).

‘Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651).

‘It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?’ (Sahih Muslim Book, Hadith Number 0290).

And from the ‘Al-Muwatta’ of Imam Malik Ibn Anas:

‘Yaḥyā related to me from Mālik from Nāfi‘ from ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said, “I dreamt one night that I was at the Ka‘ba, and I saw a dark man like the most handsome of dark men you have ever seen. He had hair which reached to between his ears and his shoulders like the most excellent of such hair that you have ever seen. He had combed his hair and water was dripping from it. He was leaning on two men or on the shoulders of two men doing ṭawāf around the Ka‘ba. I asked, ‘Who is this?’ I was told, ‘The Messiah, son of Maryam.’"

‘Mālik related to me from Ibn Shihāb from Muḥammad ibn Jubayr ibn Muṭ‘im that the Prophet ﷺ said, “I have five names. I am Muḥammad. I am Aḥmad. I am al-Māḥī (the effacer) by whom Allah effaces disbelief. I am al-Ḥāshir (the gatherer) before whom people are gathered. I am al-‘Āqib (the last).”’

Whatever one makes of these ʼaḥādīth, one thing is obvious: There is a clear distinction between the persons of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and that of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). The former does not claim to be the latter.

Blessings.

Thank you for clearing that up Niblo.

Myself reflections had to make some changes in my own self. Let's face it, I do not speak Arabic, I have only read the Quran, I am mostly ignorant of Islam. I am really only able to give alternate explanations as to what the Quran offered.

So I am like most believers in a Messenger, I am captivated by the Love, the Trustworthiness and Truthfulness of the Messenger and the example they emulated.

I can only offer that the Bab was Imprisoned and executed, and Baha'u'llah likewised Imprisoned, and exiled under influence of the Mullah, as they were unable to publicly refute what both the Bab and Baha'u'llah offered.

Everytime they tried, they realised their impotency to do so, they were unable to disprove anything that was offered. The Shah sent his greatest Scholar, Siyyid Yahya to interview the Bab, the story is in support of that commet just made.

The Shah sent his special envoy to meet with the Bab and investigate the truth of His claims

Before long, news about the young man Who called Himself the Bab --"the Gate” -- traveled as far as the court of Persia's ruler, Muhammad Sh...

bahaistories.blogspot.com

Vahid

This is how I found faith that Muhammad is a Messenger from God. (Peace be upon Him). From hero's such as this.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

I don't think its fair to expect you to have to stay out of the continuing discussion on this thread. Please don't feel bound by your earlier comment to stay silent, imo

Thank you RJM, love your sense of justice.

Regards Tony