Here we go ...

Glad you liked those notions that suggest a convergence of religious and scientific thought. Fresh on the heels of having watched again Carl Sagan’s novel-turned-movie, Contact!

I hope you also get a chance to read and process my comments moments ago that continue a line of thought emphasizing the role of potential as an unpacking agent that supRAnaturally brings some degree of the “divine” to the surface where we live, the “reality” in which we lost our (spiritual) selves, but potentially find ourselves again.

Just can’t keep a good God down! Not even with rational thought that tends to dismiss the notion of God as being a mere aberration of our minds. Even as a “myth,” God happens!
 
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My neuroscience knowledge is limited to Iain McGilchrist's The Master and his Emissary, so I known enough to know it's a very complex issue, and while I agree with the left/right dichotomy, I'm loathe to rest too much on the theory, for the same reason I'm loathe to assume too much a spiritual view of Quantum Mechanics – I simply don't know enough.

I'm listening to McGilchrist now, on YouTube – but already I've picked up on the right brain more attuned to the sense of humour, poetry, fables, narratives and rituals – or rather the interiority of such communicative forms – and we've become focussed on the exterior and superficial form of the thing ...

Jumping ahead, he speaks of 'embodiedness' (a right brain thing) and that is entirely my theology – that in Christ we have the embodiment of the Divine, and I read Scripture through that lens – the union of spirit and nature, the unity of spirit and nature, as it was originally intended.

I might argue then that the Fall (Genesis 3) perfectly sums up the emergence of the Left Hand Sphere, and furthermore the temptation that Eve underwent: "And the woman saw that the (fruit of) tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold" (Genesis 3:6) is exactly what the Left does – it sees surface and superficial, but fails to comprehend the depth, the meaning, of the act?


Exactly.


I see this as the root of the 'new atheism'.


I do wonder if perhaps the Ancients were more balanced than we are today – that the physical world was more permeable to them than to us, as if they saw the particle, but simultaneously sensed the wave pattern ... but this is probably my romance of the past ...


I'd agree – I rather think gnosis is more about 'being' than 'knowing'. In the highest realms of gnosis, there's nothing to know, there is no object of knowledge ... it's being in the flow, not facing the fact (a rather advaita comment, I think!)


although I think the Ancients had just as effective means, if perhaps not moreso ...


The non-manifesting Logos as such, prior to its bringing into being the differentiated myriad logoi?


D'you know Eriugena's "Fourfold Division of Nature"?
His claim is that “nature” (natura): "the general term for all things that are and all things that are not” (I.441a), including God and creation, is divided into four species:
that which creates and is not created (ie., God);
that which creates and is created (ie., Primary Causes or Ideas);
that which is created and does not create (ie., Temporal Effects, created things);
that which is neither created nor creates (ie., non-being, nothingness, Beyond-Being).

The four are not strictly a hierarchy in the usual Neoplatonic sense of higher and lower orders, rather, the first and fourth both refer to God as the Beginning and End of all things, and the second and third may be thought to express the unity of the cause-effect relation.

The division is an attempt to show that nature is a dialectical coming together of being and non-being. Creation is normally understood as coming into being from non-being. God as creator is then a kind of transcendent non-being above the being of creation... Its discussion runs into five volumes.


absolutely. "And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46) – there is a classical Catholic theory that Mary's God-bearing is an embodied archetype of the union of spirit and matter ... whether we amplify the coherence, or whether the underpinning coherence becomes more visible is possibly a matter of semantics.


Illuminate all of nature, you mean, and not just the intellect/soul ... I absolutely bloomin' think so!


So do I.

Pax vobiscum.
Wow! There is so much I can learn from you that can help me interface my out-of-the-box theological hunches with my chosen faith tradition’s various insights. You mention books and thinkers I’ve never heard of before. Will take me a few days to decently process your message!
 
LOL, you mean change direction by denying everything we believe in? Not a chance ...
I always love it when you go straight nuclear

(Deny EVERYTHING, LOL)

Nah heck, deny the magical mystery one by one as science and history remove them...hold on to every thread like a baby blanket until everyone is forced to throw it out with the bathwater due to folks claiming it is holy.

There is so much of value in the Bible and various religious traditions....I just hat to see it becoming a laughing stock by the masses.
 
I always love it when you go straight nuclear
As I do when you do the same.

I go straight to the core – Spong basically is rewriting Christianity to fit a contemporary humanist-liberal ethic. He's making Christianity inoffensive by not standing for anything a liberal atheist would find offensive.

Catholicism, and traditional Christian doctrines, are mystical at heart – the modern west is moving further away from that, and he is a reflection of his times and according to some, already out-of-date.

Nah heck, deny the magical mystery one by one as science and history remove them...
But they don't, do they?

You're claiming more for science than science claims for itself ... for you it's either/or science/religion ... and yet for many, it's and/and ... the two walk hand in hand.

Worth thinking about how much science came from the religiously-inclined.
 
absolutely. "And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46) – there is a classical Catholic theory that Mary's God-bearing is an embodied archetype of the union of spirit and matter ... whether we amplify the coherence, or whether the underpinning coherence becomes more visible is possibly a matter of semantics.
I also relate that glow-on or amplified coherence to being lucid in the sense of being aware of God’s mind that is behind/within His Dream (our physical reality).
 
Spirit seems to be an early energy concept (subtle body stuff), and, if my depth view of overall reality is correct, would be of a zone between Mind (deepest zone) and matter (surface zone) . Spirit interfaces matter and Mind.
 
Glad you liked those notions that suggest a convergence of scientific and religious thought. Right on the heels of seeing the movie Contact again. Are we channeling Carl Sagan?!
I'm also very wary of the woo-woo quantum spiritual stuff. Quantum science refers to very specific sub-atomic interactions, and not to the macro realm, as you are aware.

However I believe it is possible to draw messages from quantum science about the nature of greater reality.

I sometimes post videos in the Science and Nature forum and wonder if you would find this one of any interest?
 
I always love it when you go straight nuclear
(Deny EVERYTHING, LOL)
Seriously?

Bishop Spong (why did he continue to use archaic titles and wear archaic clothes if he was such a reformer – big clue) made a career out of challenging the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: Incarnation, Virgin Birth and Resurrection.

And you call me the nuclear option?

Let me be clear – I applaud his sociology. He did sterling work, I hear, and stood head-and-shoulders above his contemporaries challenging segregation and racism, all forms of sexism, homophobia during the AIDS epidemic, etc.

As a person, there is very much to admire – As a theologian, less so. I quite like his idea of God as verb rather than noun, I've said the same myself, but then again, that idea was neither mine nor his ... but his theology, really, is of the 'baby-bathwater' you mention.

In "Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile", he says he no longer believes in God, the Abrahamic God who created the world, who answered prayers, who handed down the Ten Commandments ... a God who is as Just as He is as Merciful, a God Who Loves, a God who wants to bring all humanity home.

He says: "All Bibles, creeds, doctrines, prayers, hymns are nothing but religious artifacts created to allow us to speak of our God experience at an earlier point in our history ... But history has moved us to a place where the literal content of these artifacts is all but meaningless. The God of theism not only is dying but is also probably not revivable."

That's pretty much the nuclear option, isn't it?

+++

He believe the Church must change with the times. But what times, exactly? Who's reading of the times?

Spong was not really a 'progressive', rather, he stands in a long line of (now) old-fashioned liberals (hence, I think, the garb).

His theology is a populist rehash of liberal deist ideas from the Age of the Enlightenment (where I think he was most at home) – check out the ideas of John Toland (1670-1722), or Matthew Tindal (1657-1733). Or the then-fashionable 'Death of God' theories of the 1960s. Writers who are largely forgotten today – as he will be.

A bit like Don Quixote, John Selby Spong was a man out of time. While declaring Christianity must dialogue with science or die, he either ignored or was unaware of journals like Zygon: Journal of Religion and Science (published since 1966) and Theology and Science "to publish critically reviewed articles that promote the creative mutual interaction between the natural sciences and theology" which did just that. I dare to think they were just too modern for him. Like his grasp of modern theology – it was lacking.

Spong's universe is thoroughly and decidedly Newtonian – a predictable universe with no room for the divine, the mysteries or miracles.

But that worldview was already out of date by 1998, and his theology, founded on it, is the same.

in the wake of relativity, quantum physics and string theory, scientists no longer regarded the universe as predictable, and theologians such as Ian Barbour and John Polkinghorne explored the implications of this change.

Spong never made to change to his own times, let alone speaking for today.

Nah heck, deny the magical mystery one by one as science and history remove them...hold on to every thread like a baby blanket until everyone is forced to throw it out with the bathwater due to folks claiming it is holy.
You're tilting at windmills, chum!
 
I also relate that glow-on or amplified coherence to being lucid in the sense of being aware of God’s mind that is behind/within His Dream (our physical reality).
Why 'Dream' though? God doesn't sleep, Gos doesn't exists in states, that belongs to us, are you sure you're not projecting?

And in a sense, we all do, but still I don't get 'dream'?

God acts because that's what God is, it's not something that He does. I rather like the Multiple States of Being of Hindu theology, but why any one state is a dream for God (and our one must be a nightmare, or at the very least a test of patience, LOL) I don't get.

Matter is as real to God as anything else He brings into being – its we who determine values.

+++

Spirit seems to be an early energy concept (subtle body stuff), and, if my depth view of overall reality is correct, would be of a zone between Mind (deepest zone) and matter (surface zone) . Spirit interfaces matter and Mind.
I disagree. again, I think you're perhaps over-anthropomorphising?

There is no substantial similarity between spirit and matter, and energy is just matter in a very diffuse state, or matter is energy in a 'solid' state – either way, energy and matter are the same stuff and belong in the phenomenal world.

There are many senses and meanings of spirit, but we should not fall into the error of conflating two things which rightly belong in different spheres – draw analogies, yes, but that does not mean 'sameness'.

Which came first – Mind, or Being? Spirit or Matter? act or Potency?

But whichever – there are no such distinctions in God.
 
Spong a rehash of old thought? Not much reform? Desist? Yeah, I'm fond of the Jeffersonian Bible as well.

And yes, new thought is old thought in many ways,

And no ... removing the miracles and virgin births is not imo throwing the baby out with the bath water or nuclear option ... it just is not required for the glory of Jesus's words or the Bible stories. I think it may be required to excite the rabble into forming cults and putting money in the plates or other forms of sacrifice. It may be required to get folks to gloss over the beatitudes enough times for portion of compassion.to sink in.

But I don't think it is required for thinking people of this century to grock the value of the truths contained.

But as you and many here concur ... it is required for many still ... they need the carrot, the stick, and the magic
 
And no ... removing the miracles and virgin births is not imo throwing the baby out with the bath water or nuclear option ... it just is not required for the glory of Jesus's words or the Bible stories.
The virgin birth is perhaps not required at core, but Christ's healing miracles are core to the life of Jesus, imo? Jesus was a healer, more than anything in his ministry. He walked the walk. He wasn't just a charismatic guy preaching in the temple going around talking to crowds?
 
The Son of Man claimed power on earth to forgive sin:

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic: “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, he said to them: “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic: ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say: ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" —he said to the paralytic: “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”


Matthew 2:5-12 nkjv
 
You can't drop that, and still have Jesus?
Imo
 
His words are enough for me....
What he said:

“ Which is easier to say to the paralytic: ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say: ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" —he said to the paralytic: “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Matthew 2:5-12 nkjv
 
And no ... removing the miracles and virgin births is not imo throwing the baby out with the bath water or nuclear option ...
It's way more radical than my choices, which you seem to think nuclear?

Still, the point remains Spong's solution was nuclear, and for that reason it's unfashionable these days.

it just is not required for the glory of Jesus's words or the Bible stories.
For your version of Jesus, clearly not, but then your version is barely a shadow of a man.

I think it may be required to excite the rabble into forming cults and putting money in the plates or other forms of sacrifice. It may be required to get folks to gloss over the beatitudes enough times for portion of compassion.to sink in.
LOL, that's tosh, really, a popular but ill-informed opinion.

But I don't think it is required for thinking people of this century to grock the value of the truths contained.
Again, this is really your minority view – there are truths there you do not even glimpse ....

But as you and many here concur ... it is required for many still ... they need the carrot, the stick, and the magic
Are you really that contemptuous of people who din't think like you?
 
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And everyone is expected to settle for less, because you do?
To funny that you think my belief or understanding is settling for less...that's a first!

Again, this is really your minority view – there are truths there you do not even glimpse ....
Fashionable? Popular? Minority view gaining traction...fewer and fewer people are buying the story....but contempt? Nah...issue understanding in today's world...yeah.
 
To funny that you think my belief or understanding is settling for less...that's a first!
You said it, my friend.

Minority view gaining traction...
According to various sources, Pentecostalism is the fastest-growing religious movement in the world today – primarily via conversion to Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity. According to Pulitzer Center 35,000 people become Pentecostal or "Born again" every day.
 
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