Here we go ...

[Ahanu]

According to various sources, Pentecostalism is the fastest-growing religious movement in the world today – primarily via conversion to Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity. According to Pulitzer Center 35,000 people become Pentecostal or "Born again" every day.

Pentecostalism is gaining traction in the Global South, not in places like, say, Germany. Depends on where you look? Strange that the spirit is moving so fast in formerly colonized areas and in many places that are not super-duper materially prosperous ones. Since the majority of Pentecostalism's rapid growth is in the Global South - where indigenous religions were historically suppressed during the colonial era - I cannot help but wonder what the appeal is.

The West knew what to do: tear down old social structures and make the local population feel isolated and alone. Then build a sense of community with Pentecostal churches. Offer them the Pentecostal message of hope and prosperity. The prosperity gospel is particularly popular in Pentecostal churches residing in Africa and Latin America.

 

[Thomas]

Yes, I think Pentecostalism spread via US missionaries, and the 'prosperity gospel' is all part of the that message.

 

[Ahanu]

Yes, I think Pentecostalism spread via US missionaries, and the 'prosperity gospel' is all part of the that message.

Is it spreading in your neck of the woods?

 

[Ahanu]

Minority view gaining traction...fewer and fewer people are buying the story....but contempt? Nah...issue understanding in today's world...yeayeah

I tend to agree. But it depends on the location. It seems @Thomas is placing his bets with the Global South to be the world's trend setter?

 

[Ahanu]

I think that Pentecostalism will cool down after LatAm, for example, gets richer and the general population gets more access to higher education. People will then seek other faiths or no faith at all to find meaning in a new lived experience.

 

[Thomas]

Is it spreading in your neck of the woods?

I live in multi-ethnic North London, where there's a rich diversity of faith.

We have our Penecostal/Charismatics ... but really, it's not the British way, old boy, we'd really rather not have any fuss!

It might well be particular to London. The rest of the UK regards London in a 'same country, different planet' kind of way.

 

[Thomas]

I think the most important thing to come out of the Synod is the expression of Francis' anti-clericalism – a long-worked theme to promote the maternal (caring) dimension and character of the church, which follows the reaffirmation of the universal dignity of all the baptised – we are one people under God, and Francis continually criticises self-serving, self-regarding clerical elitism: "When the ministers exceed their service and mistreat the people of God, they disfigure the face of the church with machismo and dictatorial attitudes"

In one 'round table session of the Synod, a bishop got so annoyed at what the lay delegate was saying he threatened to have the delegate excluded. It was pointed out he lacked the authority to do so, and said bishop was mightily affronted.

What Francis is working towards is not the paternal, vertical, hierarchic model of authority that has governed for centuries, but a horizontal model founded on relationship, not rank ... and there's much resistance to that.

 

[Ahanu]

It might well be particular to London. The rest of the UK regards London in a 'same country, different planet' kind of way.

I live in multi-ethnic North London, where there's a rich diversity of faith.

We have our Penecostal/Charismatics ... but really, it's not the British way, old boy, we'd really rather not have any fuss!

But would you say it is growing and popular amongst young Londoners?

 

[Thomas]

But would you say it is growing and popular amongst young Londoners?

Probably not, I would have thought ...

Religion basically gets a bad press – it's the butt of jokes, apart from anti-semitism, I think it's the last bastion of acceptable prejudice.

Unless you're raised in a religious household, it's unlikely you'll get any kind of even-handed picture ... making an informed choice means doing a lot of groundwork and there's too much else going on ...

 

[RJM]

Religion has always appealed most to the poor and weak and downtrodden. It is to them that Christ bought succour, imo

"Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28

 

[RJM]

I tend to agree. But it depends on the location. It seems @Thomas is placing his bets with the Global South to be the world's trend setter?

Perhaps it's only when I have lost everything that I tuly turn to God, and then that God responds.

And once that happens, I KNOW beyond all intellectual reasoning?

 

[otherbrother]

Why 'Dream' though? God doesn't sleep, Gos doesn't exists in states, that belongs to us, are you sure you're not projecting?

And in a sense, we all do, but still I don't get 'dream'?

God acts because that's what God is, it's not something that He does. I rather like the Multiple States of Being of Hindu theology, but why any one state is a dream for God (and our one must be a nightmare, or at the very least a test of patience, LOL) I don't get.

Matter is as real to God as anything else He brings into being – its we who determine values.

+++


I disagree. again, I think you're perhaps over-anthropomorphising?

There is no substantial similarity between spirit and matter, and energy is just matter in a very diffuse state, or matter is energy in a 'solid' state – either way, energy and matter are the same stuff and belong in the phenomenal world.

There are many senses and meanings of spirit, but we should not fall into the error of conflating two things which rightly belong in different spheres – draw analogies, yes, but that does not mean 'sameness'.

Which came first – Mind, or Being? Spirit or Matter? act or Potency?

But whichever – there are no such distinctions in God.

Wholeness and God may be one and the same “things.” As a complex object like a human becomes more whole (which we associate with a harmonization/integration of that object’s inner parts, intrapersonal wholeness) , he/she becomes more of an open system to objects and beings outside self. This would be interpersonal wholeness.

This highly interactive state, most likely highly related to Agape love, is at least energy-like, or, as you say, a different state of matter (like a burning bush that does not burn out?), in that it is highly interactive, translocated (no longer simply in one place), more flexible, etc.

I think this “soulless” is one step closer to the perfect order that one could consider as being the Source of the wholeness/soulness.

Low integration levels of stable objects could be thought of as more matter-like. The parts are more or less glued together without dancing together.

From a philosophical Idealism point of view (which very well could be an anthropomorphic-like project of the thing that thinks, my individual mind. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it is a MERE projection of a particular reality. It could be an expression in the image of Mind behind, within, a mind.), energy/subtle body and matter/gross body are different states of Mind/causal body. Viewing it in the opposite direction from the notion that energy is a varied state of matter.
Reflecting my Logos lean.

If one thinks like matter, one may also be projecting one’s own identity with matter. To me, that seems to be a limiting self-fulfilling prophecy. I am not saying that spirit is a run of the mill type of energy, but that it could be an especially pure (subtle) form of it that rests near Mind’s door. “Knock, knock, knockin on (Mind’s) door.” (Bob Dylan) . Perhaps it is more beneficial to think of direction than of delineation. As we become more like the Whole One, we seem to become more openly interactive, like an energy flow, such as a fire spread.

Thanks again for your stimulating thoughts.

Love,
Darrell

 

[otherbrother]

anthropomorphic-like “projection” , not “project.”

 

[otherbrother]

His words are enough for me.... I have no need for the miracles....life is a miracle.

I don't need supernatural...natural is enough.

Wil, I tend towards your “who needs a miracle? opinion, but:
A depth view of overall reality allows for an THIRD option: supRAnatural, via a “fountain flowing (from) deep (to) wide.” No gaps in its flow, so not not natural, but probably not merely matter, or physical being (which we tend to associate with “natural.”). Or, to borrow from Quantum theory, Some wave characteristics and quantum coherence survives the “unpacking” into a “classical object.” The wave never totally leaves the particle.

This is comforting to me because it means I have the miraculous “juice,” as long as I don’t get too crusty here on the surface. God has been in there, deep inside of me (but in such a highly convergent, quantum entangled, “place” that one could hardly say it is me or mine, certainly not the regular me or a possession of the regular me. Perhaps the True Self?).

I think the deepest level is something akin to Mind Itself (behind all mental projections called “thoughts”), which is also Universal Mind. Energy or something like energy characterizes the intermediate depth zone that interfaces with the physical reality on the surface of overall reality.

It’s a metaphysical model that works for me, and that’s what really matters to me; to have a philosophical that functions well (like a well?) in my life.

Love,
Darrell (otherbrother)

 

[otherbrother]

According to various sources, Pentecostalism is the fastest-growing religious movement in the world today – primarily via conversion to Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity. According to Pulitzer Center 35,000 people become Pentecostal or "Born again" every day.

Bottom feeding on third world need for opioid-like hope? Selling a tribalistic old model of Christianity? Analogous to General Motors selling a lot of combustible engine cars to third world countries once electric vehicles take over in the first world. BTW, despite my general disgust of the capitalistic “marketplace,” that particular means of cooperation (although contaminated with excessive competition) produced a model T ish electric car, in the form of the Chevy Bolt, which I am a happy owner of. Plug and go!

 

[wil]

Darrell (otherbrother)

Mom always loved you best.

Yeah... I don't have answers or complete understanding as to what I believe. I just haven't found anything that the majority of those who claim to know what they believe that they can agree on with others to sway me yet. But you seem leaning toward my favorite unknown T.O.E.

 

[Thomas]

His words are enough for me.... I have no need for the miracles....life is a miracle.
I don't need supernatural...natural is enough.

I often wonder if people who say this are obliquely criticising others?

It may well be good enough for you ... but that does not make it good enough for everybody.

Same with a TOE – that answers the question of Physics ... there are other questions a TOE does not address.

Or put another way, Pure Metaphysics is a TOE, just not about the physical world, but explains how, in principle, the world is as it is, and all worlds are as they are ...

 

[wil]

there are other questions a TOE does not address.

Then it ain't everything yet...

I often wonder if people who say this are obliquely criticising others?

It may well be good enough for you ... but that does not make it good enough for everybody.

I don't grock okra or beets either...but if you think they are good have at it...I'd rather not have to deal with the tastaste either on my in my being. Same goes with the biblical/quranic version of god.... we all get to make our own choices eh?

Some think mine silly yet object if I think the same of theirs...being not obliquely hypocritical.

 

[RJM]

How well can fleas ever claim to know the dog they're on?

 

[otherbrother]

Mom always loved you best.

Yeah... I don't have answers or complete understanding as to what I believe. I just haven't found anything that the majority of those who claim to know what they believe that they can agree on with others to sway me yet. But you seem leaning toward my favorite unknown T.O.E.

I’ll tell you about one miracle. My wife has stayed with this weird egghead for 49 years. It’s about time I unlock that room in the basement, and let her out!

On a panenthiestic note, in her (in the love I have of her and feel from her) I see God rather clearly. Also in my two grandchildren that came by way of the son I thought was dead in a hospital (after a bad car accident) when they told us to wait in a room until the social worker arrived. Not only did he survive head trauma, and coma, and stop breathing (at scene of accident), but he thrived with a full recovery. Miracles that unfold in a creation that allows for both happy and sad things, but enough happy to make life seem worthwhile. And of course the greatest source of happy is love. Love is some sort of wonderful quantum entanglement that makes us so much wholer than we otherwise would be. The stuff of miracles.

What is TOE? An acronym I missed?