A New Creation

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The 'change' spoken of by St Paul is – to use Christian terms – a change in the relationship between physical and spiritual.

Is this not to be born again, from the flesh into the Spirit? In Muslim terms it is submission unto God, from our human desires into the attributes of Love, all the morals and virtues.

But that's not so, is it? The world is substantially the same.

Likewise the sacra doctrina is as relevant today as it was then.

Huston-Smith called the sacred texts "the winnowed wisdom of the human race" – that wisdom is still applicable. So the world is the same.

All the messengers, you tell me, are saying substantially the same thing ... Therefore the circumstance in which they find themselves is substantially the same. Nothing has changed

From my understanding this reality is cyclic. Humanity is guided along the path of an evolving evolution of the species.

Exactly, the same old receives a new message, but itself remains the same old ...

The same foundations do remain, yet an ever evolving conciousness of our relationship with creation and the creator unfolds.

That can, and has, been said since time began ... but the world remains the same ...

Our use of the resources of this world indicates that we can change the balance. Likewise, the balance of the human species is changed by our choices.

170 years? What changes?

The most important change I see is the emerging conciousness of the Oneness of humanity and the Oneness of God.

I am still trying to understand what you are saying, including your posts after this. I will consider them as time permits.

Thank you and regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I mean not in a spiritual sense, metaphorical sense, anagogical sense ... but in physical reality.

The post-resurrection appearances of Jesus point to this. The insights of St Paul and St John testify to it ...

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The best we can hope for now is 'enlightenment', or 'beatitude', or 'walking in the spirit' ... but physically, nothing has changed.

As the Buddhist saw has it, 'Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.'

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What I see is that Physically we have an age of great change, that pose many spiritual challenges.

The purpose remains the same, for humanity to know and love God.

As I see it, the difference is, as the Bible has promised, is that conciousness has evolved to a global realisation of our oneness. That humanity cannot survive as divided factions with multiple idols as God.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A speculation –

"I can't be everywhere at once ... "
The cry of the parent, the teacher, the carer, the farmer, the labourer ...

Supposing one can – suppose a world in which consciousness transcends the material state and is no longer bound by its rule of spatio-temporality.

In a holistic metaphysic, the body is the form of the soul. The body is the means by which the soul is manifest in the world, and our presence in the world is governed according to the laws that govern material bodies, and that determines our existence and experience.

Jesus has shown, and St Paul, St John and others intuit, there will be, in a twinkling, a change,

The body will continue to be the means by which the soul is manifest in the world, but the world is now governed according to the laws of the spirit, and those laws determine our existence and experience.

The soul now inhabits the body as its master and makes use of it at will. The relationship the soul entertains with the corporeal medium of our presence has been completely transformed. A presence 'truly' active in the world because that presence is now truly the soul in act, whereas before the soul was under the conditions governing its material presence.

All our relationships, with our own corporeality, with other bodies, with the entire world and with the conditions that define it, all these relationships have been changed.

Simply put, we are no longer subject to the conditions of this corporeal world. Our bodies become our a prolongation of our spiritual reality, entirely dependent upon this reality, whereas in the state of fallen nature, it is the person's spiritual reality which extrinsically dependent upon its bodily presence.

My first thought when reading this was the person of Abdul'baha.

Abdul'baha was given to us by Baha'u'llah as a perfect example of Spirit and Flesh, an example we are asked to emulate.

Abdul'baha said, look at me, follow me, be as I am.

I only offer this Thomas as I see Abdul'baha fulfills you speculation. I also think all the Martyrs of faith experience such a condition.

I may still have to read what you wrote over and over.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Abdul'baha said, look at me, follow me, be as I am.

He was the other sinless human being -- after Jesus the Christ? You have too many mistakes, Tony ...

Do you think God cares how HARD you believe ,,,,?

 

[RJM]

If Abdul'Baha or Baha'u'llah had never been born, Jesus Christ would still be there untouched and undiminished, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

He was the other sinless human being -- after Jesus the Christ? You have too many mistakes, Tony ...

Do you think God cares how HARD you believe ,,,,?

All I can offer RJM is that Abdul'baha was a gift from Christ.

It would take study to know why I offer it in that light.

I think God loves us all RJM. I also beleive God cares for us all and always guides us to be more caring of all, God always imparts to us mercy, grace and bounty.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If Abdul'Baha or Baha'u'llah had never been born, Jesus Christ would still be there untouched and undiminished, imo

That all ties into a new creation RJM, Christ renewed in a New Name, with a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Christ is the first and the Last, names are a veil.

You commented, I responded, that is all.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

In what ways guidance through Manifestations from your God has changed humans? We are still the same or worse with deadlier weapons.
But you are welcome to rant on. There are more Ahmadiyyas than Bahais.

I can only offer I know the change the Messengers have made in me.

My guess is there are more peacemakers than warmongers. The issue is, we still have warmongers in control, but that age is fast closing in on them, they will be in their graves and humanity will learn war no more.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

I can only offer I know the change the Messengers have made in me.

They have made you in to a loud-speaker for them.

 

[RJM]

removed
I will not respond to @Tony Bristow-Stagg any more in this thread

 

[Thomas]

Is this not to be born again, from the flesh into the Spirit? In Muslim terms it is submission unto God, from our human desires into the attributes of Love, all the morals and virtues.

Not as you're describing it, no – we might all become saints, but we are substantially the same.

Our use of the resources of this world indicates that we can change the balance. Likewise, the balance of the human species is changed by our choices.

I'd say the Industrial Revolution dynamically shifted the way we manage our resources from 'renewable' to 'asset-stripping' – and as we are continually warned, we are stripping at a greater rate of natural replacement, so we're on a downward spiral, and there's no real imperative to change that, at the moment.

I see lots of talk, but when it comes to personal sacrifice, then no, it's a different story.

The most important change I see is the emerging conciousness of the Oneness of humanity and the Oneness of God.

But the oneness of humanity and the oneness of God has been in our consciousness for millennia – I see no new emergence as such.

 

[Thomas]

All I can offer RJM is that Abdul'baha was a gift from Christ.

I know you believe this, Tony, but you also know that @RJM and I do not believe it.
You come across as continually baiting Christians.

 

[RJM]

I know you believe this, Tony, but you also know that @RJM and I do not believe it.
You come across as continually baiting Christians.

I think @Tony Bristow-Stagg should at least read the New Testament before expecting Christians to 'study' his faith. Probably others feel the same about his lack of knowledge of their own religions, whose founding figures he compares to Baha'u'llah, as well as to one another. Nobody's buying it around here, imo

But as @Thomas observes, the 'Baha'u'llah Christ the Father' references particularly go to the heart of Christian sensitivities. Regarding "look at me, follow me, be as I am" all false messiahs and new Christs mimic the words of Jesus.

Whatever ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I know you believe this, Tony, but you also know that @RJM and I do not believe it.
You come across as continually baiting Christians.

The life story is available, it is a statement made on presentable facts and first account stories.

It is not bait, it is a statement that can be confirmed or refuted.

That people choose not to study that life, because of religious affiliations, that is their loss, as humanity as a whole would find the most great peace in the life of Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

That people choose not to study that life, because of religious affiliations,

Or maybe they just came to a different conclusion than you? It's not fair to assume that people don't know what they're talking about just because they don't agree with you.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Or maybe they just came to a different conclusion than you? It's not fair to assume that people don't know what they're talking about just because they don't agree with you.

That would only be because they have not looked. The life is faultless.

They can choose not to look, but then they are not able to make a fair and just comment.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

The life story is available, it is a statement made on presentable facts and first account stories.

If you want exemplary lives, I could give you many.

It is not bait, it is a statement that can be confirmed or refuted.

Which we have refuted, more than once, to thunderous silence from your end.

That people choose not to study that life, because of religious affiliations, that is their loss...

Or maybe they see through it ...

... as humanity as a whole would find the most great peace in the life of Abdul'baha.

Sadly, no ... humanity as a whole would find a greater peace by going to the source, the original Scriptures, not these muddied waters.

Take away from the texts everything that already been said by others, and there's nothing of any worth left.

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)
And you expect me to trade that peace – summed up in a simple phrase – for a syncretic mishmash of verbiage?

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Just replying in kind, Tony.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If you want exemplary lives, I could give you many.


Which we have refuted, more than once, to thunderous silence from your end.


Or maybe they see through it ...


Sadly, no ... humanity as a whole would find a greater peace by going to the source, the original Scriptures, not these muddied waters.

Take away from the texts everything that already been said by others, and there's nothing of any worth left.

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)
And you expect me to trade that peace – summed up in a simple phrase – for a syncretic mishmash of verbiage?

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Just replying in kind, Tony.

All your choices Thomas, how you view this and life. I will post an OP that has 3 very good movies about his life, for anyone that is interested.

The key here is Abdul'baha is not a messenger/prophet and no Baha'i sees him in that light. Abdul'baha means 'Servant of Baha'. In other words a perfect servant unto God. Abdul'baha lived and taught naught but peace and unity. Total servitude was his glory.

I thought the OP was about 'New Creation', to which I see Abdul'baha is a perfect example of what that actually means and I saw reflected in a comment you posted.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

That would only be because they have not looked. The life is faultless.

They can choose not to look, but then they are not able to make a fair and just comment.

People can agree that he was a good person without accepting Baha'i claims about him, or his own claims to spiritual authority.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

People can agree that he was a good person without accepting Baha'i claims about him, or his own claims to spiritual authority.

Yes they can indeed. Regards Tony