A New Creation

so I am unsure what you're trying to prove by saying "the term miracle still exists" here.
I'm not trying top prove anything, I'm just saying the term still has relevance, even if people chose not to believe in it.

But the majority of the educated public does not believe in a flat world today. However, most educated Greeks in the ancient world accepted the geocentric model.
Because the astronomers were working from observation – and some did propose a heliocentric model – they didn't have telescopes that enabled later astronomers to prove heliocentrism.

Okay. But I think the sciences and our ability to talk about ourselves are somewhat related, not unrelated! :)
I don't disagree with that, just I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

Unlike the ancients, most people today believe their thoughts have some kind of connection with the brain. Our thoughts are not disembodied spirits/gods - as they were represented in an ancient Egyptian work titled "Dispute Between a Man and His Ba."
I'm not sure that example serves you very well?

According to wiki:
"The text takes the form of a dialogue between a man struggling to come to terms with the hardship of life, and his ba soul.

"The Ba ... commonly translated into English as "soul" ... was thought to represent one's psyche or personality and was thought to live on after one's death, possessing the ability to traverse between the physical and spiritual planes.

"The work has intrigued academics for its place as one of the most significant and introspective early philosophical works. However, the text itself has been translated in many different ways, which have led to clashing academic theories on the text's themes and meaning.

"Many modern interpretations instead view the work as the psychological struggle of a man to come to terms with the sorrow that life brings and accept its innate goodness."
... That speaks of a rich internal dialogue to me ... ?

You know there must be an explanation for why the ancients sounded so different from us. This difference isn't just a result of them writing in a foreign language, ya know . . .
And yet ... so very much the same!
 
I'm not trying top prove anything, I'm just saying the term still has relevance, even if people chose not to believe in it.
How does the term "miracle" still have relevance even if people choose not to believe in it? How does the term still have relevance even though the term itself has largely undergone a semantic shift?

The term miracle once referred to an event that somehow transcended the laws of nature and could only be explained by divine intervention. The rub is that ancient people didn't understand the laws of nature very well - especially around the mysterious causes of diseases and such. Although we as a civilization do understand the laws of nature a bit better, there are still a lot of unknowns.

Today the term miracle generally refers to a personally significant event in one's life rather than divine intervention. We still have terms like "witch," "demon," and so on used by the public, but they have mostly shed their original meanings. That's why they are no longer relevant (at least not in the same sense as they were for the ancients).
 
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Because the astronomers were working from observation

Exactly.

They used their own naked eyes. It appeared to the eye that celestial objects were rising and setting each day as if they were circling around the Earth.

Likewise, it appeared to the inner eye of the ancients that there were demons and angels that existed as external entities separate from human nature in some way.
 
According to wiki:
"The text takes the form of a dialogue between a man struggling to come to terms with the hardship of life, and his ba soul.

"The Ba ... commonly translated into English as "soul" ... was thought to represent one's psyche or personality and was thought to live on after one's death, possessing the ability to traverse between the physical and spiritual planes.

"The work has intrigued academics for its place as one of the most significant and introspective early philosophical works. However, the text itself has been translated in many different ways, which have led to clashing academic theories on the text's themes and meaning.

"Many modern interpretations instead view the work as the psychological struggle of a man to come to terms with the sorrow that life brings and accept its innate goodness."
... That speaks of a rich internal dialogue to me ... ?

A rich internal dialogue? What are you talking about?

Egyptians lacked a vanishing point in their art. This shallowness is also reflected in their depiction of the mind, in which they depict themselves talking to a god or spirt. There is not much evidence of an internal dialogue since the speaker depicts his mind speaking to him as if disembodied and completely other. We ourselves know everything is happening internally, but the writer's depiction of his inner life isn't depicted in an inner way! His feelings of deception, agony, and torment were the result of the actions issuing from his ba (soul/mind) - some sort of external entity that is totally other:

"But behold! My ba would deceive me, but I heed him not,
While I am impelled toward a death whose time has not yet
come.
He flings me on the fire to torment me . . .
My ba is senseless in disparaging the agony in life
And impels me to death before my time.
And yet the West will be pleasant for me, for there is no sorrow
there.
Such is the course of life, and even trees must fall.
So trample down my illusions, for my distress is endless!
What my ba said to me:
'Are you not a man? At least you are alive!
So what do you gain by pondering on your life like the owner of a
tomb,
One who speaks to him who passes by about his life on earth?
Indeed, you are just drifting; you are not in control of yourself."


Then there are other Egyptian poems like the following:

"I belong to you like this plot of ground
That I planted with flowers
And sweet-smelling herbs.
Sweet is its stream,
Dug by your hand,
Refreshing in the northwind.
A lovely place to wander in,
Your hand in my hand.
My body thrives, my heart exults
At our walking together."


Not much going on intrinsically here besides "my heart exults." Descriptions of mental life are quite shallow.

The retelling of ancient stories shows this most clearly. Here is an excerpt from the "Story of the Shipwrecked Sailor," in which the sailor encounters a snake, and how aspects of the story were retold in a different way over time. Notice how mental life is depicted in a deeper way throughout the ages:

"I uncovered my face and found that it was a snake that was coming. It was thirty cubits longs. His beard, it was greater than two cubits long. His body was overlaid with gold. His eyebrows were real lapis lazuli. He was bent up in the front. He opened his mouth to me while I was on his belly in his presence. He said to me, 'Who brought you? Who brought you, commoner, who brought you to this island in the sea whose sides are in the water?"
-Ancient Egypt (2040-1782 BCE)

"But then he had busily performed his tasks, then he rekindled the fire, and caught sight of us and asked: 'Strangers, who are ye? Whence do you sail over the watery ways? Is it on some business, or do ye wander at random over the seas, even as pirates, who wander, hazarding their lives and bringing evil to men of other lands?' So he spoke, and in our breasts our spirit was broken for terror of his deep voice and monstrous self; yet even so I made answer and spoke to him."
-Odyssey (750-675 BCE)

"So we turned into Barney Kiernan's and there sure enough was the citizen up in the corner having a great confab with himself and that bloody mangy mongrel, Garryowen, and he waiting for what the sky would drop in the way of the drink.
There he is, says I . . .
The bloody mangy mongrel let a grouse out of him would give you the creeps. Be a corporeal work of mercy if someone would take the life of that bloody dog. I'm told for a fact he ate a good part of the breeches off a constabulary man in Santry that came round one time with a blue paper about a license."
-Ulysses (1922)


In the first example the official's reaction isn't noted. Homer notes a reaction of terror. Note that in James Joyce's retelling of the Odyssey, we have a full-blown internal reaction to the dog and its owner.

I borrowed these examples from Erik Hoel's work.
 
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How does the term "miracle" still have relevance even if people choose not to believe in it?
As long as people choose to believe in God, or Kami, or Buddhas ... then they will believe in some order of intercession.

From a strictly metaphysical point of view, there is nothing problematic with regard to the interpay of realms.

The natural laws of a particular given domain – in our case finitude and contingency – can be suspended through the intervention of a superior domain, which again in our case is perceives as universal, or more commonly, and pastorally, supernatural.

The supra-states have their own laws, within which what we perceive as miracle is 'natural'.

Again, in metaphysics, the miraculous is the result or effect of a 'vertical intervention' and not to a horizontal progression of causality. The various examples of advances in understanding of natural phenomenal, of medicine, and so on, all fall within that horizonal progression – the explanation today of things thought inexplicable yesterday – brought about by our various technologies.

One can argue, as Wil does, that all existence is natural, and simultaneously miraculous, as saints, sages and poets have done, but then to do so dogmatically, the words themselves become meaningless, as it would then be impossible to make the essential distinction between simple unknown or unconscious causation and the Supra-Conscious.

Scientism, its view limited to the horizontal and which a priori disallows the vertical, assumes 'the miraculous' is the same as 'the irrational' and 'the arbitrary', which it is not.

Rationalism assumes an exclusivity which disallows the idea of Intellection or Revelation, both of which it assumes to be irrational, and thgus declare 'miracles' as nonsense because it is contrary to reason, an inept argument, since no religion is opposed to reason as such. Rather, based on reason, one can say the supernatural is certainly contrary to common experience.

Today the term miracle generally refers to a personally significant event in one's life rather than divine intervention. We still have terms like "witch," "demon," and so on used by the public, but they have mostly shed their original meanings. That's why they are no longer relevant (at least not in the same sense as they were for the ancients).
Nope, that's a secondary definition, according to the textbooks.

As regards 'witch', 'demon. etc., they may well have assumed new meanings, but that's largely in the minds of those led by popular media and commercialism, and don't bother to think or research for themselves – in short, the views of the ancients are often more considered than common assumptions today – those ancient definitions will still hold currency when our contemporary ideas have long gone ...
 
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In the first example the official's reaction isn't noted. Homer notes a reaction of terror. Note that in James Joyce's retelling of the Odyssey, we have a full-blown internal reaction to the dog and its owner.

I borrowed these examples from Erik Hoel's work.
OK, if you're going to compare A with B, without making any allowance for being being the beneficiary of nearly 3,000 years of development, then I think you might be missing something – we stand on the shoulders of giants, I think the adage is.

But Google the topic of Joyce's literary influences ...

An essay here has this quote from Joyce:
"In my opinion the greatest thinker of all times was Aristotle. He defines everything with wonderful clarity and simplicity. Volumes were written later to define the same things …. All the great thinkers of past centuries have only re-cultivated the garden.”

And and essay here: Working Women Weaving Tales in Ovid's Metamorphoses and James Joyce's Finnegans Wake
James Joyce's literary debt to Ovid's Metamorphoses is unquestionable. Having first encountered the Metamorphoses as part of his studies at Belvedere College, he used a line from that work as the epigraph to A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man: et ignotas animum dimittit in artes (Met. 8.188). In Ulysses, a work more overtly preoccupied with Homer, Ovid's influence is found in the single-minded narration of the "Cyclops" episode, in Bloom's daylong preoccupation with metempsychosis and in the various metamorphoses occurring in the "Circe" episode...

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It may not be that the language of the ancients was wanting, rather that we don't know how to read it, we're not tuned to its sensibilities, and we lack resonance with regard to its transmission.

I'm reading an 18th century Japanese classic (in translation), thank God for the translator's preface and explanation of the text, its references and allusions, going back to ancient Japanese and Chines classics, which I would miss, if they were not pointed out to me.
 
As long as people choose to believe in God, or Kami, or Buddhas ... then they will believe in some order of intercession.
Why is direct intercession in the form you imagine (e.g., healings, resurrection) even necessary if everything is already interconnected in God? For me, it is unnecessary - just like many other speculations from Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, and Hindu metaphysicians. Everything that happens already unfolds under his divine plan. Miracles (assuming for the sake of argument that they do occur) are disruptions to an already established harmony. Everything already serves a purpose according to plan.

From a strictly metaphysical point of view, there is nothing problematic with regard to the interpay of realms.
I'm not sure what you mean by "realms" and "interplay" here. Does a realm mean a realm beyond our current scientific understanding that is governed by unknown laws? Or is a realm utterly beyond all human comprehension no matter what human progress is made?

The natural laws of a particular given domain – in our case finitude and contingency – can be suspended through the intervention of a superior domain, which again in our case is perceives as universal, or more commonly, and pastorally, supernatural.

We have free will, right? We humans, as a part of God, have the ability to make choices and learn from the consequences. Miracles bypass this entire process. They undermine individual growth. They infringe on the freedom God has granted creation. God's "interplay" might be more in the line of guidance through the unfolding of events, allowing us to navigate our own path. This "interplay" may be more subtle than you imagine, and it does not require extraordinary interventions (e.g., the physical resurrection of someone).
 
Why is direct intercession in the form you imagine (e.g., healings, resurrection) even necessary if everything is already interconnected in God
We have free will. God does not intervene without our own invitation, imo

That is the meaning of prayer: it is surrender and submission to the higher power when my own human power fails and comes to an end.

"Lord I'm in your hands. I can't do this alone."

One who has experienced God's personal help, knows it, and will never be convinced otherwise.

Imagine I need to ‘climb out’ of a problem situation but insist on trying to take all my material and emotional dead weight with me. It will drag me down and I will cry out to God for release.

The first thing that may happen, once I have surrendered to God’s angels, is that I am going to have to abandon a lot of my attachments, before I am able to rise, and when they are stripped away from me that may be quite painful for me at the time. I may feel I am losing everything.

However I will eventually be grateful and find myself in a higher, better place?
 
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This "interplay" may be more subtle than you imagine, and it does not require extraordinary interventions (e.g., the physical resurrection of someone).
Christ's miracles were extraordinary demonstrations of his extraordinary status, imo

Along with healing, Christ forgave sin. The physical healing was an outer demonstration of the inner transformation?

Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”

But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?

But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” And he arose and departed to his house.

Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.
Matthew 9:2-8
 
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Why is direct intercession ...
You're asking why Revelation?

Either one accepts Revelation, or one does not. If one does, then 'miracles' are consonant with that ... to say otherwise is the limit the manner in why God can make Himself known.

St John does not call them miracles, as do the Synoptic scribes. He called them 'signs', they are themselves part of the whole (he records seven). They are spiritual realities become concrete actualities, in that sense they are a dimension of the Incarnation. The Deeds and the Words are a common purpose.

Miracles (assuming for the sake of argument that they do occur) are disruptions to an already established harmony. Everything already serves a purpose according to plan.
I would have thought that if everything already serves a purpose according to the plan, then miracles are all part and parcel of that. Allowing that a miracle is, by definition, a divine intervention, surely it can hardly 'disrupt' the divine plan?

I'm not sure what you mean by "realms" and "interplay" here.
a simple way of looking at it is two realms, physical and spiritual. They physical sciences treat of the physical world. The Higher Sciences – Philosophy and Metaphysics, treat of those things outside the scope of simple demonstration.

Aristotle: "Let it be assumed that the states by virtue of which the soul possesses truth … are five in number: art, scientific knowledge, practical wisdom, philosophic wisdom, intuitive reason …" (Aristotle. Nicomachean Ethics, Book VI, para 3)

Does a realm mean a realm beyond our current scientific understanding ...
Depends whether you mean 'scientific understanding' the physical sciences – physics, chemistry, etc., or all the sciences, Philosophy, Theology, Metaphysics etc.? If the first sense, then yes, the spiritual is other than the physical.

Or is a realm utterly beyond all human comprehension no matter what human progress is made?
Progress is interesting in this regard. The Greeks coined the word 'atom'. Their understanding was the smallest particle. Now we have progressed, but really, only because our technologies have progressed. Had the ancient Greek mind had the fruits of electron microscopes, deep-space telescopes, CERN particle accelerators, etc., then I'm pretty confident they would have got their heads round the knowledge thus revealed.

I'm not saying if you plucked Aristotle out of time and dumped him in a laboratory, I'm saying that our progress has really been in technologies, the brain is probably the same then as it is now, so acclimatised to a new order of knowledge, the Greeks would not have exploded.

"After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas."
Thomas Hardy Christmas: 1924

We have free will, right?
Yes.

Miracles bypass this entire process. They undermine individual growth. They infringe on the freedom God has granted creation. God's "interplay" might be more in the line of guidance through the unfolding of events, allowing us to navigate our own path. This "interplay" may be more subtle than you imagine, and it does not require extraordinary interventions (e.g., the physical resurrection of someone).
I do not doubt that "the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made" (Genesis 3:1), but I am in no doubt that God is more subtle yet.

I could equally argue that if God operated by subtle and unseen means, then our free will is undermined because we are being directed in directions without our knowledge or our assent? A logical conclusion of that is that we are mere marionettes, they playthings of the gods.

Faced with a miracle, we are free to accept or refuse it, as those who witnessed the miracles first hand.

Revelation can be said to be 'in your face', but it is also subtle to the nth degree.
 
You're asking why Revelation?
I meant "intervention," not "intercession" there. My fault.

We have free will. God does not intervene without our own invitation, imo

That is the meaning of prayer: it is surrender and submission to the higher power when my own human power fails and comes to an end.

"Lord I'm in your hands. I can't do this alone."

Prayers don't dictate the flow of creation (e.g., intervention by invitation); they reflect the flow of creation (e.g., inviting us to conform to God's will, not the other way around). In prayer I am opening myself up to my own transformation.
 
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Prayers don't dictate the flow of creation (e.g., intervention by invitation)
No. Of course prayer does not dictate to the divine. But prayer does invite the divine. Without the invitation, the divine may not intervene, imo

"Behold I stand at the door and knock"

they reflect the flow of creation (e.g., inviting us to conform to God's will,
Which may involve letting go of many material and emotional burdens and attachments. Every spiritual path involves a choice between God and mammon. There is ego surrender -- submission and humility before the higher power?

"Thy will not my will, even though you slay me -- still do I love thee -- show me the way"
 
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Buddhist, and Hindu metaphysicians. Everything that happens already unfolds under his divine plan. Miracles (assuming for the sake of argument that they do occur) are disruptions to an already established harmony. Everything already serves a purpose according to plan.
buddha did not talk about things that did not benefit people, god was one of such things. in hinduism, half the metaphysicists were atheists.
vaisheshika, samkhya, purva mimamsa, yoga, nyaya. only advaitists stood for god. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_atheism
 
No. Of course prayer does not dictate to the divine. But prayer does invite the divine.

Prayer is often viewed as the act of "opening" the door to allow Jesus - who has been waiting for an invitation - to work in our lives. This act of "opening" is interpreted to mean "invitation." But this is not the only view, my friend.

Without the invitation, the divine may not intervene, imo

Ah, he may not intervene. A problem arises: it raises questions about why God doesn't always respond to pleas for healing or help in times of suffering. If I accidently shoot my leg, get it amputated in a hospital to save my life, and then, after the doctors do their work, pray for it to be restored, there will be no extraordinary intervention from the divine to have it regrow or reappear.

Instead, I interpret Jesus' knocking as opening myself up to God's will and aligning myself with his guidance. I am surrendering to God's wisdom rather than expecting direct intervention that may or may not occur through invitation.

If God only responds to explicit invitations, the role of prayer becomes more one-sided, potentially diminishing its significance as a tool for connection and spiritual growth.
 
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The supra-states have their own laws, within which what we perceive as miracle is 'natural'.
Okay. The term miracle in your book is a relative term. Here it is a miracle; there it is natural.

Again, in metaphysics, the miraculous is the result or effect of a 'vertical intervention' and not to a horizontal progression of causality.
We will rely on the metaphysicians to differentiate between vertical interventions and horizontal progressions of causality then. Many events we attribute to miracles might have involved hidden natural processes or complex chains of interconnected events beyond our current understanding. Who draws the line between "divine intervention" and an as-yet-undiscovered natural explanation? You?

As @RJM's said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
 
Instead, I interpret Jesus' knocking as opening myself up to God's will and aligning myself with his guidance. I am surrendering to God's wisdom rather than expecting direct intervention that may or may not occur through invitation.
Exactly

God cares first about my soul, imo

“Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”
— communion prayer
 
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We can ask for healing but it should be included to add thy will be done. I've witnessed and experienced miracles. I serve a supernatural God who works supernaturally. We were never promised a life devoid of suffering . Suffering produces character and we are to rejoice in our trials and tribulations.
 
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Okay. The term miracle in your book is a relative term. Here it is a miracle; there it is natural.
No, the original sense of the word, and the metaphysical sense, is the primary sense. It's the first listing in a dictionary.

The secondary sense, a wonder of nature, as in 'all life is a miracle'.

The ternary and more recent sense, of a misunderstood or unknown natural action, is the least of the three.

This third does not actually 'undo' the idea of miracles, simply states that what was often viewed as miraculous was actually unseen nature.

Many events we attribute to miracles might have involved hidden natural processes or complex chains of interconnected events beyond our current understanding.
I don't dispute it, but that does not therefore exclude the possibility of miracles – it does not necessarily apply in every case.

What the physical sciences cannot do is determine whether or not there has been a divine Intervention.

Who draws the line between "divine intervention" and an as-yet-undiscovered natural explanation? You?
No, Tradition.

And, by the same token, who decides that 'miracles' are unreasonable or irrational?

I'm often told that 'science' (by which is meant physical sciences) has all the answers, and rules out religion. I simply happen to believe there is that which lies outside the wit and purview of the physical sciences – and when I am told this is nonsense, it seems reasonable and rational to me to ask for the proof on which that assertion is based...

But none is provided, nor can one be, for science – or rather that dogmatism I think of as scientism – decides a priori what can and cannot be as a given axiom, and simply refutes, without sufficient reason, anything to the contrary – demanding that it should offer itself up, as it were, for investigation.

So it seems to me the claims of scientism are based on insufficient scientific evidence.

Take the case of a person who suffers from an increasingly debilitating condition. The condition is determined by medicine as 'incurable', and the treatment is palliative. The person lives their life as best they are able. Their community prays for their deliverance. Then, one day, the condition 'mysteriously' reverses. Medicine observes, confirms, but cannot explain the process. The community believe it to be a miracle.

Now, one cannot prove the miraculous, nor can anyone prove the cure was as the result of unseen and unknown purely natural causes – science can say no more than that the recovery is currently inexplicable, but hopes, one day, it will be understood, for the benefit of all.

But no-one has conclusively ruled out a miracle.

As @RJM's said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Most people can't explain a toaster, a motor car engine or how a transistor works. Most people believed voices 'travel' down a telephone line (if you remember landlines) ... I'd have thought nearly all tech is a 'miracle' to the everyday person – certainly a mystery, but that mystery is not in the same category of a religious Mystery.

Here's a story:
At a place I worked used to be an advanced Tai-Chi practitioner. Someone he knew was being treated for cancer via chemicals and radiography, and the latter was most debilitating, with vomiting and nausea for about 36 hours afterwards. My co-worker mention it, and the master said he would like to help. He met the man and began a programme of breathing techniques.

The patient undertook a specific breathing exercise for at least 20 minutes, each side of the treatment. The result was a rapid recovery from the treatment, and no long-lasting side-effects. Recovery was in hours, rather than days. He thought it miraculous. Nor could his doctors explain it, having noted how speedily he recovered.

It was not a miracle, but it was something outside the scope of western medicine, although common to the Orient.

+++

A simple test: Can, and do, scientists believe in miracles?
Answer: Yes – nothing precludes the possibility, and there are those who do.
There's a discussion on the topic at the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion.

Within a biblical paradigm, miracles are rational and reasonable, plausible and coherent. If God is the creator of all that exists, then it is perfectly rational to believe that God can act outside the sphere of human understanding. Augustine said: "For how is that contrary to nature which happens by the will of God, since the will of so mighty a Creator is certainly the nature of each created thing? A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature, but contrary to what we know as nature." (City of God, XXI, 8).
 
British science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke formulated three adages that are known as Clarke's Three Laws
of which the third law is the best known and most widely cited. They are part of his ideas in his extensive writings about the future.

1) When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2) The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
wikipedia
 
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