A New Creation

Rather, based on reason, one can say the supernatural is certainly contrary to common experience.

Common experience is highly subjective, varying with historical periods, cultures, and people. Electricity and magnetism were once thought to be supernatural. Lightning was once thought to be a form of divine intervention (e.g., Thor's hammer in Norse mythology). For a more recent example, some feared Benjamin Franklin's kite experiment was playing with divine forces. Some feared it could invite God's wrath and punishment. With magnetism lodestones were once thought to be magical or influenced by celestial bodies in ancient China and many other places and times.
 
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declare 'miracles' as nonsense because it is contrary to reason, an inept argument, since no religion is opposed to reason as such.

As we can see above miraculous thinking can be an impediment to understanding unknown phenomena. Surely you acknowledge this danger?
 
As we can see above miraculous thinking can be an impediment to understanding unknown phenomena. Surely you acknowledge this danger?
I do, can you acknowledge that the opposite is also the case?
 
Ergo my belief is that the Mystery of which St Paul speaks is that the world will endure, but it shall be changed – that whereas now the spirit lives according to the material, that state will be reversed, and the correct hierarchy will be the material appears according to the will of the spiritual.
As you presented it, Paul gives us a strong dichotomy between matter and spirit - as if they are diametrically opposed to any unified and holistic understanding, as if "substantial" change will not take place until some distant and miraculous moment in the future. To me, the thought just lacks process, and it locks us in a static world where everything must be viewed as the same until "the end" when the dramatic, long-awaited transformation from material substance into divine substance will occur.

Instead of a sudden and complete reversal, what about a harmonious integration of matter and spirit over time? Or perhaps the relationship between matter and spirit are too complex for us to neatly categorize?

"...[Baha’u’llah’s] mission is to proclaim that the ages of the infancy and of the childhood of the human race are past, that the convulsions associated with the present stage of its adolescence are slowly and painfully preparing it to attain the stage of manhood, and are heralding the approach of that Age of Ages when swords will be beaten into plowshares, when the Kingdom promised by Jesus Christ will have been established, and the peace of the planet definitely and permanently ensured. – Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. v.
That can, and has, been said since time began ... but the world remains the same ...

We've seen more positive changes in the past two centuries than in the past 1800 years after Christ.

Think about the massive changes in the standard of living!

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The world remains the same?

Look at the dramatic decline in child mortality.

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The world remains the same?

Look at the exploding literacy rate!

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The world remains the same?

Homicide rates across Western Europe are down - dramatically!

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The world remains the same?

Some of Jesus' disciples were fishermen, but incomes from agriculture haven’t been 50% of the world economy for 200 years. This has profound implications!

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The world remains the same?

We are now in the exponential age.

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The world remains the same?

I could go on and on. But I'm sure you're probably thinking: "You're missing the point."

Exactly. Not changed, just the same thing continued.

It's not a circle; it's an upward spiral.

Does the Baha'i teaching in any way encompass the Pauline message of substantial change, rather than moral and ethical?
I don't accept the premise of the question. It assumes moral and ethical teachings do not lead to substantial change. Emergent properties have something qualitatively different that emerge from the intricate interplay of parts.

One Baha'i writer said it best here:

“Consider how, to this day, the sovereignty of Christ has endured. How can a sovereignty of such greatness be manifested by a non-existent sovereign? How can such waves surge from a non-existent sea? How can such heavenly breezes waft from a non-existent garden? Consider that as soon as the constituent parts of anything, be it mineral, plant, or animal, are disintegrated and its elemental composition is dissolved, all effect, influence, and trace thereof vanish. But it is not so with the human spirit and reality, which continues to manifest its signs, to exert its influence, and to sustain its effects even after the dissociation and decomposition of the various parts and members of the body.” (Some Answered Questions) www.bahai.org/r/243182409


This argument can operate on two levels as I see it. On a metaphysical level I believe it is being argued that the human spirit can still influence and produce effects in the physical world, perhaps mediated by those that are still living. However it can also be understood on a more concrete level, via the collective memory of a given human civilization. Thus the collective has a memory and continual response to the life of its individuals, that the consciousness of each individual doesn’t really die upon the dissolution of their physical bodies. That individual consciousnesses continues to act in the world via the collective. This collective has a memory and performs actions which are based on the memory and perhaps even the structures of civilization configures itself according to the consciousness of each individual.


Interestingly this mirrors somewhat some recent approaches to neuroscience and the properties of emergence. At some scale certain collective entities become imbued with agency. That is, it operates as a causal agent, where the whole system can be described as being a principal cause of some effect. Often for systems at this stage, the macroscopic description becomes more informative and predictive than the microscopic activity. For example in the case of consciousness understanding the psychological state of a person is better and more effective way to predict their behavior than any attempt to model the dynamics of every atom which he is comprised of."

can you acknowledge that the opposite is also the case?
That non-miraculous thinking can be an impediment to understanding unknown phenomena?

Well, it hinges on the definition of miracle (which has already been discussed). If you mean the "suspension of natural laws that opens up space for the impossible," then, no, I cannot acknowledge that such childlike thinking is the case. However, if you mean "a deeper understanding of natural laws that allows for seemingly impossible feats," then, yes, I can acknowledge them.

That non-miraculous thinking is dangerous? Only insofar as I am hostile and intolerant of those that believe in miracles.
 
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...
We are now in the exponential age.

Accelerating-growth-in-technology-with-years-present-era-PE-Courtesy-Vivisum-Partners.png

The world remains the same?

I could go on and on. But I'm sure you're probably thinking: "You're missing the point."
You could go "on & on", but the world cannot .. there are LIMITS TO GROWTH. 😐

That non-miraculous thinking is dangerous? Only insofar as I am hostile and intolerant of those that believe in miracles..
..but the Bible and Qur'an both teach that miracles did actually occur,
but only with the "permission of G-d". ( with the Father's permission/decree)

Why should it be a case of either/or? .. the same applies to evolution/creation.
 
You could go "on & on", but the world cannot .. there are LIMITS TO GROWTH. 😐

Perfection is limitless, so it is not about just growth, but it is about quality too (as the first chart indicates). Metaverse and AI are up next. Things are going to get weird, especially in terms of ways to make income.

..but the Bible and Qur'an both teach that miracles did actually occur,
but only with the "permission of G-d". ( with the Father's permission/decree)

Both ancient texts residing within a historical, cultural, and social context during an earlier stage of human development. Consciousness is not a static property.

Why should it be a case of either/or? .. the same applies to evolution/creation.

I do feel like defining a miracle as "a deeper understanding of natural laws that allows for seemingly impossible feats" is a middle way. It's all one reality really, but the mind divides into "realms" and the like for the sake of comprehension of what it cannot directly grasp.

Just my speculations on the matter.
 
Both ancient texts residing within a historical, cultural, and social context during an earlier stage of human development. Consciousness is not a static property.
Yup. Ok ...

Allowing that these Abrahamic books were a later summation of history, abbreviated and constructed around promoting a particuiar 'ideology' but nevertheless still relevant in their distillation? Their wisdom cannot be discarded as ancient and therefore no longer relevant?
 
Perfection is limitless, so it is not about just growth, but it is about quality too (as the first chart indicates). Metaverse and AI are up next. Things are going to get weird, especially in terms of ways to make income.



Both ancient texts residing within a historical, cultural, and social context during an earlier stage of human development. Consciousness is not a static property.



I do feel like defining a miracle as "a deeper understanding of natural laws that allows for seemingly impossible feats" is a middle way. It's all one reality really, but the mind divides into "realms" and the like for the sake of comprehension of what it cannot directly grasp.

Just my speculations on the matter.
Miracles seem to be one of two types..1) improbable things, unexpected, but not prohibited by laws of physics 2) myth. trickery, and the like
 
As you presented it, Paul gives us a strong dichotomy between matter and spirit ...
Oh ... that's an unintended consequence of what I wrote.

Paul's mystical speculation is founded deeply in his Judaism. Certainly the Hellenic tendency to an overt dualism was creeping into Jewish mystical speculation, but modern scholarship – both Christian and Jewish – regard Paul's theology as thoroughly grounded in his Judaic belief.

To me, the thought just lacks process, and it locks us in a static world where everything must be viewed as the same until "the end" when the dramatic, long-awaited transformation from material substance into divine substance will occur.
Well we're not talking about natural progress or process ... but quite how and when the Parousia will occur is, of course, a matter of speculation. The idea of a 'sudden' happening, a coming 'like a thief in the night' might well have a sound pastoral undercurrent to it ... certainly the religions teach .not to put off until tomorrow' where human nature is inclined top do just that.

Or perhaps the relationship between matter and spirit are too complex for us to neatly categorize?
Depends on how we seek to categorise them, I would say ... u8nder the auspices of the physical sciences is not the wey, however.

Think about the massive changes in the standard of living! ... I could go on and on. But I'm sure you're probably thinking: "You're missing the point."
Yes.

I don't accept the premise of the question.
OK, Got that.

That non-miraculous thinking can be an impediment to understanding unknown phenomena?
That's not what I said ...

That non-miraculous thinking is dangerous? Only insofar as I am hostile and intolerant of those that believe in miracles.
OK. Somewhat irrational, but each to his own.
 
Miracles seem to be one of two types..1) improbable things, unexpected, but not prohibited by laws of physics 2) myth. trickery, and the like
I suppose so, if you rule out Divine Activity.
 
If a person hasn't experienced it doesn't meant it doesn't exist.
An experience is a mental abstraction. People can hallucinate, they can be fooled by illusions, they can have nightmares, and they can convince themselves of invisible beings.

There is no objective evidence of Divine Activity, and so it can be refuted without evidence.
 
An experience is a mental abstraction. People can hallucinate, they can be fooled by illusions, they can have nightmares, and they can convince themselves of invisible beings.

There is no objective evidence of Divine Activity, and so it can be refuted without evidence.
As one that has experienced the supernatural power of God and know personally others that have experienced the supernatural power of God.. I disagree. Why would God reveal Himself supernaturally to someone that doesn't believe or puts it down to hallucinations or illusions. God will not be tested so if you need actual evidence of miracles to believe then you might be waiting for a very long time.
 
As one that has experienced the supernatural power of God and know personally others that have experienced the supernatural power of God.. I disagree. Why would God reveal Himself supernaturally to someone that doesn't believe or puts it down to hallucinations or illusions. God will not be tested so if you need actual evidence of miracles to believe then you might be waiting for a very long time.
Your mental experience is due to your brain activity, which you have misinterpreted. There hasn't been nor ever will be evidence of miracles.

I for one, am not waiting.
 
Your mental experience is due to your brain activity, which you have misinterpreted. There hasn't been nor ever will be evidence of miracles.

I for one, am not waiting.
You are deceived.

My mom contracted serum hepatitis after a blood transfusion in the 60s. She was on the death ward of a military hospital with multiple organ failure. The doctors could do nothing for her and didn't provide any medical treatment. The doctors told my dad that she wouldn't make it through the night. Her skin and the whites of her eyes were yellow! That night she experienced a miracle and she left the hospital a week later with doctors and hospital staff baffled at the fact that they could not detect hepatitis in her system. She is now 76 years old and healthy as a horse. These experiences happen to people every day. Just because you have not experienced a miracle does not mean they don't happen.

That experience defies logic and certainly wasn't the product of an illusion or hallucination.
 
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You are deceived.

My mom contracted serum hepatitis after a blood transfusion in the 60s. She was on the death ward of a military hospital with multiple organ failure. The doctors could do nothing for her and didn't provide any medical treatment. The doctors told my dad that she wouldn't make it through the night. Her skin and the whites of her eyes were yellow! That night she experienced a miracle and she left the hospital a week later with doctors and hospital staff baffled at the fact that they could not detect hepatitis in her system. She is now 76 years old and healthy as a horse. These experiences happen to people every day. Just because you have not experienced a miracle does not mean they don't happen.

That experience defies logic and certainly wasn't the product of an illusion or hallucination.
Improbable things happen. Why would god put your mother through her near death experience just to take her out of it? Do you think god is schizophrenic?

A lack of understanding doesn't mean you get to make up an explanation. That is the god of the gaps fallacy.
 
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An experience is a mental abstraction. People can hallucinate, they can be fooled by illusions, they can have nightmares, and they can convince themselves of invisible beings.

There is no objective evidence of Divine Activity, and so it can be refuted without evidence.
Oh good grief ... are you of the opinion that if there is a God He/She?It/They must be accessible to the physical sciences?
 
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