Growth Christianity

[RJM]

Psychedelic writers such as Aldous Huxley and William S. Burroughs insist that Hell exists as much a condition as Heaven. Whether or not a subjective personal perception -- the condition is absolutely real to the person.

Hells exist in Buddhism and other non-Christian religions. To say nothing of Islam. Jesus spoke of hell in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and in the parable of the millstone.
.
It might be unwise to write the concept out of Christianity altogether, imo?

 

[otherbrother]

Thomas, Thanks for migrating here to participate in this discussion. As you probably already know, I am more of a right-brained, impressionistic thinker, who is not terribly precise, but sensitive to new directions that might improve the quality of our "herd."

Not sure what Uncertain Universalist means. Could you break that down a bit for me?

I do assume that he, and other popular authors, are probably recycling some theological notions put out by previous thinkers. I haven't even read the book yet to see if he references earlier theologians. Just now ordered it.

 

[otherbrother]

Psychedelic writers such as Aldous Huxley and William S. Burroughs insist that Hell exists as much a condition as Heaven. Whether or not a subjective personal perception -- the condition is absolutely real to the person.

Hells exist in Buddhism and other non-Christian religions. To say nothing of Islam. Jesus spoke of hell in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and in the parable of the millstone.
.
It might be unwise to write the concept out of Christianity altogether, imo?

Dimensions in the spectral domain where subtle energy and consciousness get trapped ("Bardos", etc)? Yes, I don't rule that out at all. And personal horrible consequences for our missteps certainly exist as well.

But the notion of "eternal" and irreversible hell seems inconsistent with a loving and creative (leaning on synthesis) "God." The potential toward love and wholeness seems quite real, even more likely to eventually take over than our temporary lost states in which we can't see or be the forest because of the trees (the ten thousand things) we are focused on and become overly attached to. Spirit transcends flesh, and leans toward "good."

And it's the potential for a positive self-fulfilling prophesy that I'm most interested in. Metaphysical speculations about hell and heaven, and divine beings, etc. are okay as long as they create a positive self-fulfilling prophesy.

The psychologist and the prophet in me is not really too interested in much else (even though I dabble a lot in the "else"!). And if I imagine that I am, right now, on my deathbed, all I want to talk about is love. I might throw in some speculation about quantum coherence and quantum entanglement, deep reality, and divinity, sandwiched in during my last few breaths, but the main message will be about love and trying to grow in and with love.

That's just another nonanalytical way in which love wins. I won't focus too much on hell, other than saying we can get the hell out of it!

 

[otherbrother]

The right brain augments, emphasizes dramatically. As one's consciousness shifts over to that particular dance partner, negative missteps and lost, cut-off, alienated, feelings will be amplified to encourage a change in direction. Drama for a purpose.
But the left brain can chime in to help us interpret the drama much less histrionically.
My favorite poet is Wallace Stevens.
When I emulate his style in my own poems, it is generally a turn off to other poets. They say things like "you should show, not tell." But the whole mind and the whole person shows and tells. Hard to imagine intentionality without some preachy telling along the way. And yet the poetic, mystical, aspect can (and should) remain in the spiritual growth journey.
Or maybe I just don't do the mixing as well as Wallace Stevens did.
Here is my seasonal poem that does the mixing of right and left brain consciousness:

Lifefullofwonder



Like George Bailey’s life compressed

by responsibility and dreams squashed,

the word “wonderful” conceals

the wonder and fullness of life.

Two meanings are lost in a familiar word.

“Wonderful” is quite nice, even excitedly so,

but what ever happened to the stopped-still awe of “wonder”?

What became of the beyond-words riches of “full”?



George Bailey was trying (and that may have been the problem)

to have a wonderful life.

What did he see in those far off lands he hoped to explore?

Wonders of the world?

What did he not see there in Bedford Falls?

In the small office of his father’s Building and Loan company?

In Mary’s embracing arms?

In the old haunted house turned into his home?



Couldn’t he see the wonders whirling all about,

like the ghosts hidden in his ramshackle mansion?

Did his dreams dim his inner vision?

Keep him from seeing the spirit woven into his life?

Did the fact that he was barely making ends meet

keep him from seeing the circles of love?





Dreams that collapsed into despair

made him look past his daughter’s adoring eyes

as he tucked her in bed on Christmas Eve.

It was just a cold winter night to him.

He felt the falling of snow —

not the soft landings of snowflakes,

his children’s kisses

melting magically on his face.

He couldn’t feel the wonder.



Had he let Potter get under his skin,

that old parasite of power and greed,

like a warble’s lump under a cow’s hide in Spring?

Is that what numbed him to the snowflake kisses?

To the grace touching him in small ways?

Did his face turn into Potter’s field?

A hopeless place to bury the poor?



Even the word “wonderful” needed a break,

a dark silent gap to stand in,

a lancing to let out the parasite,

a space between wonder and full,

between distant wonders of the world

and the fullness of George Bailey’s everyday life.



Broken and empty, he thought of throwing himself away.

Suddenly, someone needed to be saved.

He plunged into deep waters.

Near death, he saw how life might have been if his hadn't—

saw the wondrously abundant little snowflake touches

that he left on the cheeks of the townsfolk.



Clarence brought clarity, a word heard differently.

“Wonderful” was “wonder, full”.

Then a sizable breath, exhaled freely into the cold night air,

rolled off George’s tongue like a whole new word.

He lifted up his arms to celebrate the snow falling.







© 2005 Darrell Moneyhon


George Bailey was helped by and angel out of his personal hell. The left brain can make a boxy hell of things. The right brain can make a fiery hell of things. But the two can help each other towards integrated action and wholeness.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, Thanks for migrating here to participate in this discussion. As you probably already know, I am more of a right-brained, impressionistic thinker, who is not terribly precise, but sensitive to new directions that might improve the quality of our "herd."

That's rather my point ... I don't think the direction is new ...

I'm also really cautious about a too-hard delineation between right brain and left brain thinking – when we think, the whole brain is involved?

The writing of Gregory of Nyssa, for example, one among many Christian saints and sages, is 'out there' whehn it comes to impressionistic, but nevertheless founded in solid understanding of doctrine – it's that which ensures we don't fly off into fantasia.

Not sure what Uncertain Universalist means. Could you break that down a bit for me?

The idea that all will be saved.

From a quick look, Bell doesn't like the idea of hell, but insists it's real, and that there are necessarily souls there for the 'aion', which is the duration of the age, but not necessarily eternal in the broadest sense ...

The Catholic Church insists that hell is eternal, and I can go along with that, but at the same time I am a Universalist, in that I believe none will be left behind, as it were. But then I also argue that the human soul, which is created, can cease to exist – it has the potentiality for immortality, but that's not a given.

I do assume that he, and other popular authors, are probably recycling some theological notions put out by previous thinkers. I haven't even read the book yet to see if he references earlier theologians. Just now ordered it.

OK. Seems like he is, but the criticism is that he recycles notions, but it not clear in his conclusions ... if he had annotated his writings, it would allow the reader to chase down his references and review the material for themselves.

Having said that, I can be just as bad (I don't publish), I make statements here which are my take on other writings, although I do try, whejn going into detail, to cite my sources, and if I were publishing, I'd feel honour-bound to do so.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the notion of "eternal" and irreversible hell seems inconsistent with a loving and creative (leaning on synthesis) "God."

Yes, I would agree.
However, if an individual is 'hell bent' on doing evil, then .. unless that individual repents ..
how can they be delivered from that evil that surrounds them?

One way, would be for G-d to 'wave a magic wand', and the person becomes
a different person .. but then, individuality is lost.

That's just another nonanalytical way in which love wins. I won't focus too much on hell, other than saying we can get the hell out of it!

The problem with that attitude, is that we might not take our bad deeds so seriously, and
the more we sin, the harder it is to stop .. like telling lies for example.

It's not as simple as flicking a switch .. if it was, then why does satan (or an evil person),
behave as they do?

 

[otherbrother]

That's rather my point ... I don't think the direction is new ...

I'm also really cautious about a too-hard delineation between right brain and left brain thinking – when we think, the whole brain is involved?

The writing of Gregory of Nyssa, for example, one among many Christian saints and sages, is 'out there' whehn it comes to impressionistic, but nevertheless founded in solid understanding of doctrine – it's that which ensures we don't fly off into fantasia.


The idea that all will be saved.

From a quick look, Bell doesn't like the idea of hell, but insists it's real, and that there are necessarily souls there for the 'aion', which is the duration of the age, but not necessarily eternal in the broadest sense ...

The Catholic Church insists that hell is eternal, and I can go along with that, but at the same time I am a Universalist, in that I believe none will be left behind, as it were. But then I also argue that the human soul, which is created, can cease to exist – it has the potentiality for immortality, but that's not a given.


OK. Seems like he is, but the criticism is that he recycles notions, but it not clear in his conclusions ... if he had annotated his writings, it would allow the reader to chase down his references and review the material for themselves.

Having said that, I can be just as bad (I don't publish), I make statements here which are my take on other writings, although I do try, whejn going into detail, to cite my sources, and if I were publishing, I'd feel honour-bound to do so.

I can see the difference between an individual spirit and the wholeness of a being, called a “soul.” In my nighttime dream experiences suggestive of astral projection, my (what I think is a) spirit sometimes is reluctant to return to its physical realm home. No wonder angels are depicted as having wings and flying about!

Glad to hear you are a fellow Universalist. Didn’t know I was, but seems a decent club to belong to.

 

[Thomas]

I can see the difference between an individual spirit and the wholeness of a being, called a “soul.”

I think the distinction is more nuanced. a soul is a soul, the term spirit, when applied to the human spirit, the human soul, then becomes a matter of degree. There are mineral souls, flora and fauna souls, rational souls, supra-rational souls – the mystical writings of the Abrahamic traditions classify or qualify the nature of the soul in its ascent – one might say it's a matter of illumination.

There's a gradation of the soul here

In my nighttime dream experiences suggestive of astral projection, my (what I think is a) spirit sometimes is reluctant to return to its physical realm home.

The Astral is primarily the domain of the psychic, rather than the spiritual.

Glad to hear you are a fellow Universalist. Didn’t know I was, but seems a decent club to belong to.

Well, when you've read Bell on the issue of hell, etc., get back to me and we can discuss ...

 

[Thomas]

But the notion of "eternal" and irreversible hell seems inconsistent with a loving and creative (leaning on synthesis) "God."

Not really, as has been pointed out above ... but another element is time as we understand it, is all part of the material world – Time in the eschaton is a whole other ballgame.

And it's the potential for a positive self-fulfilling prophesy that I'm most interested in. Metaphysical speculations about hell and heaven, and divine beings, etc. are okay as long as they create a positive self-fulfilling prophesy.

But what if that positive self-fulfilling prophecy is a fantasy – that's the point. Metaphysics transcends our subjective desires and deals with what is real.

 

[Thomas]

The problem with that attitude, is that we might not take our bad deeds so seriously, and
the more we sin, the harder it is to stop .. like telling lies for example.

That's exactly it!

St Maximus the Confessor seemed to hint at Universal Salvation – Apocatastasis – as a doctrine that must, for humanity's sake, remain secret.

We've had a Theosophist here tell us that Christians believe they can do whatever they like with impunity, because they're all forgiven in the end ... and if the Church taught that, we'd all be going to hell in a handbasket!

Someone asked a theologian: Does your church believe in Universal Salvation?
His reply was: No, but I hope that God does.

 

[RJM]

but another element is time as we understand it, is all part of the material world – Time in the eschaton is a whole other ballgame.

Bingo

To speak of a condition beyond death of the material body in terms of time and space, seems to be a contradiction in terms?

 

[EricPH]

Good and evil - heaven or hell poses a dilemma. The atheist might say, I didn't ask to be born, why should I spend an eternity in hell for bad choices I make in life?

In Christianity, we say the Lord's prayer, and we tell God what to do. Forgives us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. So if I can't forgive someone, I am telling God not to forgive me in the same way.

We can only hope and pray that God is more forgiving than we are.

 

[otherbrother]

Yes, I would agree.
However, if an individual is 'hell bent' on doing evil, then .. unless that individual repents ..
how can they be delivered from that evil that surrounds them?

One way, would be for G-d to 'wave a magic wand', and the person becomes
a different person .. but then, individuality is lost.


The problem with that attitude, is that we might not take our bad deeds so seriously, and
the more we sin, the harder it is to stop .. like telling lies for example.

It's not as simple as flicking a switch .. if it was, then why does satan (or an evil person),
behave as they do?

Some of my thoughts presented in an unpublished manuscript for a book seem to address the issue of "flicking a switch," when it comes to overcoming or transcending sin. Yes, it is not easy for us to go "deep," and to let go and let God (the Deep substrate of all this), but it is possible via awareness. We are equipped with the potential to sense the deepest reality. Granted, some are more "contemplative" and/or aware than others. But all have the potential. It is hard for those who aren't particularly gifted at going deep. They are more firmly attached to the surface where we currently exist. But contemplative skills can be nurtured, even in the shallowest of students. Perhaps for the most challenged, constructive uses of psychedelic could be used as training wheels, alongside careful instruction/guidance? There is a way. Do we care enough about spiritual growth to have the will to find the way to help each other grow?

Here is the excerpt. Sorry for its length. While the topic is only one area of sin (hate), I feel that it applies to all aspects of sin. Perhaps all sin is related to stubborn fear and defensiveness?

Exorcism

Hate corrupts the very same thing that fuels faith and gives it meaning. It is a real “demon.” It negatively affects your ability to consistently and fully love.

Conversely, the act of exorcising the demon called Hate liberates love and fortifies faith. It greatly improves our life journey. The act of side-stepping the temptation to dance with the “devil” who foments and ferments hatred into an intoxicating and addictive brew is but a preemptive form of exorcism. Whether you call it avoiding temptation or exorcism, your journey will be much better when you find a way to let go of the heavy baggage of bitterness.

This is easier said than done, because effort and self-control often causes a rebound or blowback effect. Ironically, “resisting temptation” can actually increase the very same temptation you are trying to resist. The harder you try to control your hate, the more it comes back—often even stronger than it was before.

It’s like not thinking about a purple unicorn. The more you try not to think about it, the more you end up, sooner or later, thinking about that unusual creature.

Unlike the purple unicorn, hate is not so unusual. It is by no means a mere myth. But hate is just as tricky about slipping back into one’s thought as is that purple unicorn that you are trying not to think about.

Nonetheless, exorcism of Hate can be done. This creature can be vaporized.



The Key

The key is to allow awareness to take the lead. Self-control is still in play, but plays second fiddle to a deeper awareness which reveals the folly and inferiority of hate.

What is revealed in this deeper awareness and understanding is an unusual “creature” in and of itself. But much more real than hate and purple unicorns. In fact, it is not a mere creature; it is the pulse of overall Creation. And the pulse of the Creator.

Furthermore, this revealed reality has something to do with love and faith. Rather, love and faith has something to do with it.

To describe this deeper reality more precisely than that might involve telling tall tales. We would just turn it into another purple unicorn.

Fortunately, even without the benefit of specificity, this deeper, truer, reality causes hate to pale in comparison to it.

If a person can stay focused on this deeper reality, then hate will be exorcised. Hate, as a proud but inferior entity, simply can’t stand something stealing its thunder. It goes off into the fog, sulking all the while.

Also, hate literally can’t stand on the place (in one’s heart or soul) where its vitality has been stolen. The word “exist” means “to stand out.” Without sufficiently firm/real ground to stand upon, hate can no longer stand out. It can no longer exist.

Love is liberated. Faith is fueled and fortified.

 

[RJM]

@otherbrother

People tend to skim over lengthy cut-and-paste posts in the discussion forums, especially on a phone screen.

These aren't over long but perhaps not directly relevant to the drift of the thread discussion?

The Member Writing Forum may be a better place for these excerpts from your books to attract a proper reading?

Just my own opinion ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it is not easy for us to go "deep," and to let go and let God (the Deep substrate of all this), but it is possible via awareness. We are equipped with the potential to sense the deepest reality..

I agree that we should not give up trying to help others who may not have the benefit of faith
that we might have.
I understand that you have experience in prisons, so I'm sure you are aware that many
people can be helped, but a few do not/will not repent, unfortunately.

If a person can stay focused on this deeper reality, then hate will be exorcised..

Again, I agree that hate can be lessened in our hearts .. I would say that faith is fundamental,
but that knowledge of HOW/WHY hate gets into our hearts is also important.
eg. envy

..but yes .. positive thought is the 'winner'

 

[otherbrother]

@otherbrother

People tend to skim over lengthy cut-and-paste posts in the discussion forums, especially on a phone screen.

These aren't over long but perhaps not directly relevant to the drift of the thread discussion?

The Member Writing Forum may be a better place for these excerpts from your books to attract a proper reading?

Just my own opinion ...

I agree. Too long for a typical "discussion." I tend to dig down deep and beat a dead horse with analysis, even though my cognitive style is rather poetic, using a lot of analogies and metaphors. In fact, it is a fatal flaw of my writing, as writing. Fine for thinking, but lousy "writing." Unless I find readers who enjoy watching paint dry!!!!

I may refer folks to the writing section for my comments there that I feel are relevant to the discussion here (on any given discussion thread, that is). I'll have to learn how to make a link, like you did above, to insert though.

 

[RJM]

@otherbrother

There are no problems with your posts, but we encounter posters who like to use and create threads purely as a vehicle to insert paste-up excerpts from their own writing, or from their favourite guru. Then it becomes a problem.

You obviously have no commercial intentions here, and whatever I say is purely just my own opinion. This is not a large community. So please don't let my comments upset you or put you off posting

As regards posting a link, it is not difficult but perhaps someone else -- or Google -- will be able to demonstrate?

Regards
Roger

 

[otherbrother]

I agree that we should not give up trying to help others who may not have the benefit of faith
that we might have.
I understand that you have experience in prisons, so I'm sure you are aware that many
people can be helped, but a few do not/will not repent, unfortunately.


Again, I agree that hate can be lessened in our hearts .. I would say that faith is fundamental,
but that knowledge of HOW/WHY hate gets into our hearts is also important.
eg. envy

..but yes .. positive thought is the 'winner'

Wonderful comments that have the potential of helping me grow my faith. What does faith mean? Other than confidence gained from God or (to the secular mind) Who Knows from What?
I tend to think that "faith" is when we can operate from a literally deeper zone of being. I have not read Paul Tillich's books, but I know he calls God the "Ground of Being." That seems like a good way to navigate mentally and spiritually to "God," and to subsequently develop a skill or trait that we might call "faith." So, to me, the habit, skill, or virtue of faith has everything to do with going deep into one's very being, and then (and this is a necessary step) APPLYING that deep energy and viewpoint to the courser energy formats of physical existence, everyday life. A metaphorical "bucket" must go down in the "well" and then be successfully brought up to the surface, still carrying, and then dispensing, the deep "waters" so they can quench our thirst and water our crops.

The well is a variation of the Fountain. I love both, as metaphors that provide a "depth-dynamic" conceptual "map" for developing faith and other "spiritual" attributes.

I just agreed with RJM about not pasting in long dissertations (and to provide a link to writer's forum instead), but I'll go on and break the rule one more time by sharing an excerpt concerning the nature and development of "virtues." Wouldn't "faith" be considered a "virtue," a kind of inner self structuring that both CS Lewis (in his book, Mere Christianity), as well as the author (?) of the secular spirituality book "Flow," talk about? Through spiritual practice of going deep, etc., we format our inner (energy-like) core. CS Lewis made a good point. What good will it be to go to heaven if you don't have commensurate virtues to make use of it? All the joyful heavenly music would just fall on deaf ears, or, worse, sound like noise. To that virtue-lacking person, heaven would be a kind of hell! 'What the hell can I do in a place like this?!!!!!"

So, I see "virtue" as a midway point between morals (and I'm not a big fan of standard "morality," even though I'm not a fan of immorality either) and something akin to enlightenment or Godliness. It seems a good common ground that I have with those who lean toward more traditional conceptualizations and practices of spirituality.

except from Allsville Emerging:

Todd thought of the joy as being more than an accidental state caused by external circumstances. He had just witnessed how he found joy, even though the surroundings had not changed one bit. It seemed to him that joyfulness was an ability of the mind. As a person gets the knack of accessing and applying that mind skill, it is viewed as being one of his or her characteristics. At that point we tend to call the mind skill a “virtue.”

Thus, joyfulness can be correctly thought of as being both a mind skill and a virtue. Even Todd, as an amateur joy-creator, had a partial degree of the virtue of joyfulness. A master of joyfulness would be like a professional who can perform his or her craft at a high level, day after day. Contrast this reliability to the amateur’s unreliable spurts of excellence. The “professional” joyfulness accessor and applier consistently possesses (or is positively possessed by) the virtue of joyfulness.

To Todd, a virtue seemed like a light that shines from the deepest parts of the mind. A big part of the skill of being joyful is to learn to go deep inside, to a spiritual zone where joy and other virtues are uncorrupted by worldly distractions and fearfulness.

The method, or Way, of being truly virtuous is to tap into the “eye of the hurricane,” and then to apply the inner peace to the outer storms of life. It is an inside-out approach to conducting one’s individual life. That’s why the external circumstances did not need to change in order for Todd to find joy. He was still all aglow from letting his joy light shine.

He then began to think about different virtues. Joyfulness is one of many. Awareness is another. It is an especially important virtue. Todd realized that without awareness, he would probably not have accessed his joyfulness.

 

[otherbrother]

@otherbrother

There are no problems with your posts, but we encounter posters who like to use and create threads purely as a vehicle to insert paste-up excerpts from their own writing, or from their favourite guru. Then it becomes a problem.

You obviously have no commercial intentions here, and whatever I say is purely just my own opinion. This is not a large community. So please don't let my comments upset you or put you off posting

As regards posting a link, it is not difficult but perhaps someone else -- or Google -- will be able to demonstrate?

Regards
Roger

Yes, I am in a wonderful position of having nothing marketable to sell when it comes to my books. They are failures, and as such, pose no threat of having market value worth promoting any longer. Remember Cat Steven's song, Moonshadow? "and if I lose my teeth, I won't have to eat (or chew?) no more....I'm being followed by a moon shadow." Or Garth Brook's song Thank God for Unanswered Prayers!

 

[otherbrother]

I agree that we should not give up trying to help others who may not have the benefit of faith
that we might have.
I understand that you have experience in prisons, so I'm sure you are aware that many
people can be helped, but a few do not/will not repent, unfortunately.


Again, I agree that hate can be lessened in our hearts .. I would say that faith is fundamental,
but that knowledge of HOW/WHY hate gets into our hearts is also important.
eg. envy

..but yes .. positive thought is the 'winner'

"but that knowledge of HOW/WHY hate gets into our hearts is also important.
eg. envy"

This that you said is a VERY good point. It is important to face repressed emotions, to do the inner work to remove emotional baggage that gets in the way of going deeper. But if a guide could meet a person at, or near the "horse with no name"-like core of being, and help them carry the buzz of the deep state into their everyday lives and everyday perceptions, it could possibly work on the emotional baggage or "inner demons" from and inside out direction. Get underneath the subconsciously buried emotional baggage/demons. The practice of taking the mask off of one's feared inner monster (such as appears in a dream) may be useful.

I once had a client imagine reliving a near death situation that he said caused him to be overly afraid of death. When he went back into the drowning situation and reported on it to me, he said he actually felt safe in God's hands. He then became aware that it was his earthly father's fear back on the shore that was haunting him. He had taken on his father's fear. And this insight seemed to relieve my client. Whether it left the fearful baggage behind altogether, or simply gave him a momentary catharsis, I don't know. I just know that the mind seems to have the capacity, under guidance or perhaps at times spontaneously, to get behind or below a problematic repressed or buried emotional issue.

How many people have never experienced love enough to trust letting go and going deep? The client in my example above had apparently experienced enough love to imagine God as lovingly holding him in His hands. What if love had been a completely foreign concept to that same client?

Yes, some emotion work may be needed.

Going straight to the depths is called "Dogzhen" in eastern spiritual circles.

Psychological work at facing and working through one's emotional baggage would probably be classed under "Tantric?"

Standard moralism is Sutric. An outside-in, very gradual, path to spiritual growth and wholeness.

Matter moves slower than energy or mind. The Moody Blues sang: "Thinking is the best way to travel." Seems that mind can be quite light on its feet! And energy can be channeled, redirected, quicker than moving objects with a lot of mass. I wrote a song called Tend the Fire, that suggests we are better off working with on the energy issues in the "heart-hearth." It is a standard inside-out, get the heart right first, give/live with a glad heart, theme that I was blessed to express in a song. My church's Contemporary service band leader sang my song beautifully a couple of Sundays ago. Again, I was blessed to be a part of something that felt like it was guided by the Holy Spirit.