Growth Christianity

[EricPH]

I love both, as metaphors that provide a "depth-dynamic" conceptual "map" for developing faith and other "spiritual" attributes.

We shall be going out with the Street Pastor team tomorrow night, we will probably finish around 4 am. We wonder the streets of our town to listen, care and help when we can. New Years Eve can be a joyful time, it can also turn nasty, but we put our faith in God and Go. We first pray that God will put in our path the people he needs us to see, so we have God appointments. We pray, that if God places situations in our path where we feel out of our depth, to help us with the words and actions to do his will. Now we don't have to worry what will happen, as we have placed everything in God's hands.

We have been in the middle of fights with fifty people, when bottles have been used to cut people's faces open. We have asked people to hand over knives and iron bars. I have been doing this since 2008, and none of us have been hurt, we constantly have to give thanks to God for all the good things that happen. I am now 74, but we have remarkable volunteers in their eighties, both men and ladies.

 

[otherbrother]

What a beautiful example of applying the Deepest resources to a very rough surface area. The power of faith.
Thanks for sharing that very good news.
I’ll pray for your safety and effectiveness in your ministry-by-example.
Curious, is the miraculous result partly from offering a peaceful vibe? Something even a lost madman hungers for? Like bringing slices of apple pie to a gun fight?

 

[otherbrother]

Eric, After reading your inspirational message, I put my phone in my shirt pocket. It accidentally triggered one of the AI generated slide videos that Apple equipped the phones with. When I went to turn it off, I literally saw my life flash before my eyes! It was a “profiles” slide show of me! At first I couldn’t see what was the central theme of the show. Then I noticed it was me here there and wherever, mostly interacting with loved-ones in my family. Just added to the inspiration you gave me. This little drama called my life, ain’t half bad!” So blessed. So God-withed.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Wouldn't "faith" be considered a "virtue," a kind of inner self structuring that both CS Lewis (in his book, Mere Christianity), as well as the author (?) of the secular spirituality book "Flow," talk about? Through spiritual practice of going deep, etc., we format our inner (energy-like) core. CS Lewis made a good point..

Mmm .. as an aside, did you know that CS Lewis became an atheist as a teenager, despite his Irish, ministerial background?
"He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically 'very angry with God for not existing' and 'equally angry with him for creating a world'.
- Wikipedia -

What good will it be to go to heaven if you don't have commensurate virtues to make use of it? All the joyful heavenly music would just fall on deaf ears, or, worse, sound like noise. To that virtue-lacking person, heaven would be a kind of hell! 'What the hell can I do in a place like this?!!!!!"

CS Lewis lectured in Philosophy at Oxford and Cambridge.

He also wrote the 'Chronicles of Narnia', where Aslan the Lion, was portrayed as a mysterious divine.

A master of joyfulness would be like a professional who can perform his or her craft at a high level, day after day..

..sounds a bit like 'Morecambe and Wise'

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember Cat Steven's song, Moonshadow? "and if I lose my teeth, I won't have to eat (or chew?) no more....I'm being followed by a moon shadow."

How could I forget?
We have similar stories, in as much as we both embraced Islam in our youth,
and from the South of England.

 

[EricPH]

Curious, is the miraculous result partly from offering a peaceful vibe? Something even a lost madman hungers for? Like bringing slices of apple pie to a gun fight?

I am always amazed at what kindness can achieve; when dealing with violence. I have been a Street Pastor since 2008, we are volunteers from many different churches. I can remember the first big fight we saw; about a dozen angry drunks punching the living daylights out of each other. We face a dilemma; our risk assessments say we should stay away and call the police. Or we can pray and go. As we approached, I saw a man punched to the ground, another man was being kicked as he lay on the road, a man swung round and punched a woman in the face.

We walked in the middle and tried to keep people apart, using no physical contact. I can only say, I experienced a profound sense of peace that is beyond my understanding. It is like the drunks absorbed my peace, and I soaked up their anger like a sponge. No matter what might happen, I don't want anyone to rob me of my pece. After a while the fight ended, we stopped with them, and when it was time to leave, we had so many hugs, handshakes and kisses. I was in my sixties at the time, and the two remarkable ladies with me were both in their seventies.

Philippians 4, describes the path to peace.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[EricPH]

When I signed up to be a Street Pastor, It challenged my understanding of forgiveness. There was a possibility I might be hurt; do I forgive them? Before I went out on my first shift, I made it my intentions that I should forgive anyone in advance if I did get hurt.

Technically, I have never been hit whilst on shift. But there was one incident, when we had finished one night; and taken our uniform off. We were walking towards our cars, when we saw a couple of angry lads. One pointed at us, and told us to walk away. I said to my mate we should, because their anger was directed at us. My partner said, have you seen those other lads climbing over a garden fence, then I knew we were going to stop. We did get hit and pushed around, nothing too serious.

We reported the incident to the police, because we work in partnership with the police, but not for the police. A couple of days later, I had a phone call from the police asking, could I make a statement, because they had caught the lads. I said, No. As a Christian, I should forgive, if I sign a statement, it says to me, that I have not forgiven. I did say to the police, I would be happy to meet up with these lads, they do the talking, and afterwards, they should be free to walk away. Sadly. The police said no to this offer.

A few months later, we met the angriest lad again. People often have the right to be angry. This lad had never got on with his dad, then his dad was diagnosed with cancer, and they started to make up. Sadly, his died shortly after, we just happened to meet him at a time of extreme grief and anger. What he needed, was some kindness and not a police record.

 

[wil]

Walk away from hell? I still chuckle at the notion of it and heaven which is foisted upon me from many (most? It was most idk anymore if it still is) abrahamics

 

[otherbrother]

How could I forget?
We have similar stories, in as much as we both embraced Islam in our youth,
and from the South of England.

Neat thing in common with the Cat

 

[otherbrother]

When I signed up to be a Street Pastor, It challenged my understanding of forgiveness. There was a possibility I might be hurt; do I forgive them? Before I went out on my first shift, I made it my intentions that I should forgive anyone in advance if I did get hurt.

Technically, I have never been hit whilst on shift. But there was one incident, when we had finished one night; and taken our uniform off. We were walking towards our cars, when we saw a couple of angry lads. One pointed at us, and told us to walk away. I said to my mate we should, because their anger was directed at us. My partner said, have you seen those other lads climbing over a garden fence, then I knew we were going to stop. We did get hit and pushed around, nothing too serious.

We reported the incident to the police, because we work in partnership with the police, but not for the police. A couple of days later, I had a phone call from the police asking, could I make a statement, because they had caught the lads. I said, No. As a Christian, I should forgive, if I sign a statement, it says to me, that I have not forgiven. I did say to the police, I would be happy to meet up with these lads, they do the talking, and afterwards, they should be free to walk away. Sadly. The police said no to this offer.

A few months later, we met the angriest lad again. People often have the right to be angry. This lad had never got on with his dad, then his dad was diagnosed with cancer, and they started to make up. Sadly, his died shortly after, we just happened to meet him at a time of extreme grief and anger. What he needed, was some kindness and not a police record.

Loved that story. We all need to be reminded of the “power of love” (Huey Lewis and the News).
Got music on my mind a lot lately, as I am writing the second better quality song this month (first was Tend the Fire, now May We Move—both spiritual), and that it (and running) help me increase the flow sensation of love in my heart (chakra work?).

 

[otherbrother]

Walk away from hell? I still chuckle at the notion of it and heaven which is foisted upon me from many (most? It was most idk anymore if it still is) abrahamics

And go about being as whole and happy as possible instead? Sounds good to me. But maybe they each could be symbolic (metaphorical) expressions of karmic consequences, and, as such simply get us back to focusing trying to grow our wholeness, happiness, and love.
Use them as (Joseph Campbell would say) meaningful myths.
I’m down with that—rather, up to heavenly good with that,

 

[wil]

The devil and angel critters as parts of my brain arguing morality and instant gratification over longterm growth bennies?

Absolutely!

Imagining hell as the dump at the edge of town where those without funds search for scraps and indigents burn forever...hades yeah!

The parables, morals, metaphor, allegory and mythology of religious texts should not be thrown out with the bathwater!

 

[Thomas]

Hey, @otherbrother,

A post by @alphone reminded me of something (see their post) – can the relationship between Logos (masc) and Wisdom/Sophia/Hakma (fem) be analogous to the Left Brain/Right Brain thing?

 

[otherbrother]

The devil and angel critters as parts of my brain arguing morality and instant gratification over longterm growth bennies?

Absolutely!

Imagining hell as the dump at the edge of town where those without funds search for scraps and indigents burn forever...hades yeah!

The parables, morals, metaphor, allegory and mythology of religious texts should not be thrown out with the bathwater!

I agree. The truth is there. Just more metaphorical in nature than we in the modern world tend to think. We don’t use a great deal of poetic logic because we have specialized in manipulating things, technology.

 

[otherbrother]

I think the distinction is more nuanced. a soul is a soul, the term spirit, when applied to the human spirit, the human soul, then becomes a matter of degree. There are mineral souls, flora and fauna souls, rational souls, supra-rational souls – the mystical writings of the Abrahamic traditions classify or qualify the nature of the soul in its ascent – one might say it's a matter of illumination.

There's a gradation of the soul here


The Astral is primarily the domain of the psychic, rather than the spiritual.


Well, when you've read Bell on the issue of hell, etc., get back to me and we can discuss ...

Got the book but only started to read it

 

[Thomas]

It's worth noting that the idea of hell exists in many traditions.

We must be careful in talking about God that we do not suppose a deity that conforms to our egalitarian, altruistic or sentimental ideals.

In Traditional (Catholic & Orthodox) Christianity, 'fire' take on a positive and negative connotation, as far as we are concerned.

The negative is the Gehenna of which Jesus speaks, that desolate dump outside of Jerusalem, the final resting place of the unwanted – of those who have no place in any world, here or the hereafter – the final and utter extinction of the soul – Jesus was right to use that place as a metaphor for our worst imaginable fate.

The positive aspect is voiced in Malachi 3:2-3: "And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice."

This refining and cleansing fire then is the purification of the soul in the face of Truth, when, in the face of truth, all our illusions and self-deceptions are laid bare – Purgatory (from the Latin to purge or purify).

In death the soul is confronted by the truth of itself, and the degree of suffering is the distance between the real and the imagined – a suffering sharpened by the degree to which we cling on the our illusions in the face of Truth.

If therefore we are condemned, we condemn ourselves – God's justice means there is no excuse, no 'other-than-the-truth'. God's mercy is Infinite.

In the end it's a question of how wedded we are to the idea of ourselves as gods, which lies at the root of all sin and error.

 

[otherbrother]

It's worth noting that the idea of hell exists in many traditions.

We must be careful in talking about God that we do not suppose a deity that conforms to our egalitarian, altruistic or sentimental ideals.

In Traditional (Catholic & Orthodox) Christianity, 'fire' take on a positive and negative connotation, as far as we are concerned.

The negative is the Gehenna of which Jesus speaks, that desolate dump outside of Jerusalem, the final resting place of the unwanted – of those who have no place in any world, here or the hereafter – the final and utter extinction of the soul – Jesus was right to use that place as a metaphor for our worst imaginable fate.

The positive aspect is voiced in Malachi 3:2-3: "And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice."

This refining and cleansing fire then is the purification of the soul in the face of Truth, when, in the face of truth, all our illusions and self-deceptions are laid bare – Purgatory (from the Latin to purge or purify).

In death the soul is confronted by the truth of itself, and the degree of suffering is the distance between the real and the imagined – a suffering sharpened by the degree to which we cling on the our illusions in the face of Truth.

If therefore we are condemned, we condemn ourselves – God's justice means there is no excuse, no 'other-than-the-truth'. God's mercy is Infinite.

In the end it's a question of how wedded we are to the idea of ourselves as gods, which lies at the root of all sin and error.

 

[otherbrother]

I think Bell is on board with this (that you described) limited aspect of hell or purgatory:“This refining and cleansing fire then is the purification of the soul in the face of Truth, when, in the face of truth, all our illusions and self-deceptions are laid bare – Purgatory (from the Latin to purge or purify).

In death the soul is confronted by the truth of itself, and the degree of suffering is the distance between the real and the imagined – a suffering sharpened by the degree to which we cling on the our illusions in the face of Truth.”
And that works for me too. The eternal, inescapable, hell is out for me. Something connected to individuality, yet not just “individual” (a particular “spirit?”) must prevail if God is ,in fact, a loving God. The ego-bound self may disappear altogether in a meaningless void of a “hell.” But that small i individual never was the True Self anyway, just the outer clothes of a “self.” Gaps are real on or towards the surface realm, but not real at the core of overall reality. No really real gap to fall into. No Hell capable of eternally damning. Hell no!

 

[otherbrother]

Seeing self as a God is conflating the “clothes” with the Naked Truth of being, whether individual being or universal being.
A conflation of Deep reality with surface reality. Also a conflation of actual (surface manifestations) with potential (logos).

Having said that, I think I would tend to think the impressionistic right brain only could (loosely) grasp the spirit/logos, whereas the left brain specializes in adapting it to surface reality (“wisdom”?). The left brain “thinks like matter.” The right brain can “think like energy,” or “spirit.” Deeper yet realization (Mind Itself) may require an integration of the two—a whole-mind mode of consciousness.
Just my best guess in relation to your earlier question about which (brain hemisphere) might correlate with which (logos or wisdom).

 

[otherbrother]

Was blessed to be recently inspired by the late Rachel Held Evan’s book Inspired. In particular her chapter about the deepening effect and role of “wilderness,” whether collective rough patches or personal rough patches.
Got me to thinking: Is “growth” too comfortable and superficial? Or does true growth bring on the necessary wilderness.

Today, during some personal processing, I got my answer.
I realized that I have not grown as I had hoped in the area of being “present.” I tend towards being a thoughtaholic. And that interferes with listening and being present.

In the process of processing (trying to gain insight), I remembered a sermon of sorts that I preached to myself in my first book, Allsville Emerging: Creating and Experiencing a New Culture Together.
I postulated three “levels of intelligence.”
The first was utilizing the tried and true traditional “tools” and concepts. The second was coming up with new innovations, concepts. The second “level” involves a busy imaginative mind that often chases butterflies and wild geese.
I imagined a third level akin to zen-like mindfulness. Here is an example of where I imagined my self to “grow,” had I achieved this level back when I was doing physical labor on the farm as a boy:
“Suddenly , an even more creative thought interrupts the flow. ‘What if I could learn to use this tool-creating mind/mechanism as a tool itself, in order to rise above the whole problem? Could I mentally transform a situation that leaves me feeling hot, aching, bored, and trapped, into a pleasant. stimulating, and peaceful reality? Could I see a reality beyond the surface facts, or ‘clothes,’ of this reality, so as to see the ‘naked truth?’ Why would I be dependent on external changes (such as cooler temperature s, easier hoe chops) if I could really see the naked truth of my labor? I would really know my place in this life—in this moment, in this field. The details would be seen in an entirely new way that was never dreamed of before.’
Just thinking about this possible invention begins to change the way the hoe feels in my hand and in relation to my body. The heat on my upper back and the aching in my lower back is still there, but, as though I were on laughing gas, I don’t experience the old pain. I am about something else. My body is in harmony with the swinging hoe. As the hoe sinks into the soil, I experience a connection with the ancient earth. As I cut the weeds, I am cutting across time.
I look up and see the sky. Now it is a whole, embracing, sky…
My mind is free…
I am not trapped. I am a vessel that channels energy from an unseen river…
I am vibrant, alive, yet I peacefully accept my weeding project. “
Reflecting on my own “sermon,” did I ever practice what I preached all those years ago?

Sadly, No.
I did not seriously invest in my own growth toward that third level of intelligence, mindfulness.
And so my fear-based demons of pushing through the trapped feeling so that I can get the damn jobs done, continued to interfere with my loving embrace of life and all those within it. I have not been fully present. Loving, yes, but not able to express it in the form of being fully present, I allowed the busy overcompensating level two intelligence to interfere with my potential level three intelligence that would have allowed me to be more peacefully and lovingly present.
And THIS now is the wilderness I find myself in.
Sincere (albeit delayed) growth led me there. Pray that I grow deeper, fuller, and richer from it.
Love,
Darrell