on Faith

[Thomas]

There is a saying – 'the first thing one knows is the last thing one understands', and such is faith.

“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not” (Hebrews 11:1), but, by the Grace of God, in some manner we can aspire to “the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.” (Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, The Mystical Theology, I, 1)

The 'ultimate summit' is such that it cannot be known, because it transcends all forms, and thus cannot be attained by knowledge, but only by faith, and a 'leap into the dark', which again, is what faith is.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

There is a saying – 'the first thing one knows is the last thing one understands', and such is faith.

“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not” (Hebrews 11:1), but, by the Grace of God, in some manner we can aspire to “the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.” (Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, The Mystical Theology, I, 1)

The 'ultimate summit' is such that it cannot be known, because it transcends all forms, and thus cannot be attained by knowledge, but only by faith, and a 'leap into the dark', which again, is what faith is.

I see and personally would say it is a leap into the Light. As such Faith is enlightenment. The unknown self, the self that embraces the light, is pursued and knowledge of our spiritual selves is gained, whole new worlds are opened before our eyes.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Word salad.

 

[RJM]

I see and personally would say it is a leap into the Light. As such Faith is enlightenment. The unknown self, the self that embraces the light, is pursued and knowledge of our spiritual selves is gained, whole new worlds are opened before our eyes.

Of course ‘faith’ can also amount to unquestioning acceptance of another human being’s claims to be the mouth of truth, and blind surrender of my own mind to doing whatever that person instructs me to do, saying whatever I’m told to say, seeing whatever I’m told I see and thinking whatever I’m told to think?

IMO that is why Christ accompanied his spiritual words and forgiveness of sin by demonstrations of His power to heal. The central focus of Christ’s ministry on earth was his healing power?

Spoiler: Mark 2:1-12

And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men.

And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’?

But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Mark2:1-12

But the multitude of self-proclaimed 'new Christs' aren't able to back up their words as Jesus did

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Of course ‘faith’ can also amount to unquestioning acceptance of another human being’s claims to be the mouth of truth, and blind surrender of my own mind to doing whatever that person instructs me to do, saying whatever I’m told to say, seeing whatever I’m told I see and thinking whatever I’m told to think?

That is a journey into darkness, that is not a journey Baha'u'llah asks of us, that was not a journey Muhammad asked of us, that is not a journey Jesus asked of us.

They One and All, backed up their Words, given of God.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

That is a journey into darkness, that is not a journey Baha'u'llah asks of us, that was not a journey Muhammad asked of us, that is not a journey Jesus asked of us.

Then why not just follow Jesus?

Most Muslims, and most Baha'i have never read the New Testament

This is the Christian forum and Paul in Hebrews 11:1 is writing about Jesus. He's not writing about Baha'u'llah or any other new 'updated' Christ figure

 

[RJM]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg
I do not doubt your sincerity.

God reaches every person in an individual way that works for them, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Then why not just follow Jesus?

Most Muslims, and most Baha'i have never read the New Testament

This is the Christian forum and Paul in Hebrews 11:1 is writing about Jesus. He's not writing about Baha'u'llah or any other new 'updated' Christ figure

It appears that Hebrew 11 is all about embracing Faith and it lists the Faith of many Prophets.

You asked why not just follow Jesus, from my frame of reference, I would not be following Jesus, if I did not embrace Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, that is why.

I will leave it there, if I am not allowed to enter a Christain discussion. Please advise.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

It appears that Hebrew 11 is all about embracing Faith and it lists the Faith of many Prophets.

You asked why not just follow Jesus, from my frame of reference, I would not be following Jesus, if I did not embrace Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, that is why.

Fair enough, but overall Paul in his letters is talking about Jesus, not about prophets and 'messengers' in general

The letter to the Hebrews starts with:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son. Today I have begotten You”?
Hebrews 1:1-5

It sets the tone for the whole letter, and in the chapter following Hebrews 11, he writes:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:1-2

The colour emphasis is mine and I am posting to show that Paul was speaking about Jesus, nobody else. Passages taken out-of-context to try to show that he was writing about Muhammad (pbuh) or Baha'u'llah or any other prophet or messenger do not fly.

It is the whole issue.

There's no problem with what anyone else believes, but the New Testament should not be cherry-picked to try to make it say what it clearly does not say, in order to try to support new updated Christ figures. Especially by followers of those other faiths and religions who have never read the New Testament to gain the full context, imo

(edited)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The colour emphasis is mine and I am posting these to show that Paul was speaking about Jesus, nobody else. Passages taken out-of-context to try to show that he was writing about Muhammad (pbuh) or Baha'u'llah or any other prophet or messenger do not fly.

Logically Paul would not write about Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, as he had embraced Jesus for the age he lived. I offer the context of the talk progresses with and is applicable to Faith in each of the Prophets.

Maybe just best to let the conversation stay amongst the Christians RJM.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Logically Paul would not write about Muhammad and Baha'u'llah

Well, if this is understood ...

 

[RJM]

Fair enough Baha'u'llah genuinely believed himself to be the new returned Christ -- as do his sincere followers.

But it's not a situation that can be extracted from the New Testament read in context. Imo

It’s no good using selected extracts from the New Testament to convince Christians to accept Baha’u’llah as the new Christ.

And there is the major issue of Christians having to first accept the Quran as the successor, or addendum, to the New Testament, in order to engage with Baha’i belief structure. The two scriptures differ in fundamentals.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You asked why not just follow Jesus, from my frame of reference, I would not be following Jesus, if I did not embrace Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, that is why.

Leaving out Mirza Ghulam Ahmad! Why do you disregard him? He too was a messenger of God.
He understood that hyping a new religion is not God's command, since it is one God, one religion.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Leaving out Mirza Ghulam Ahmad! Why do you disregard him? He too was a messenger of God.
He understood that hyping a new religion is not God's command, since it is one God, one religion.

On faith, you would have to ask Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as to why he made a claim when he was well aware of the claims of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, had even studied and said he had masteres the Writings of the Bab. (He never challenged the Bab and Baha'u'llah)

This is the dark aspect of Faith, those that claim a station that is not theirs to claim.

Our journey in faith, is between the darkness and the potential of the Light given of God. Choice is a gift, many do not realise that face such a choice, that it is alao applicable to them.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad studied religion, was nothing special and piggy backed of other faiths. He changed his ideas about some religious subjects over time.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad studied religion, was nothing special and piggy backed of other faiths..

Oh, the irony .. as that is what @RJM continually tells YOU about Bahai belief.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Oh, the irony .. as that is what @RJM continually tells YOU about Bahai belief.

There is no Irony, as Faiths are born out of the Faith that preceeded it. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have a Book of Laws and Independent religions, even though they were born into Islam.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad basically tried to reform Islam.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah were calling Christians, Muslims and people of all Faiths to a 'New Day of God", they were not calling humanity into a branch of reformed Islam.

Therein is the difference, just as Jesus and Muhammad did before the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Bab and Baha'u'llah were calling Christians, Muslims and people of all Faiths to a 'New Day of God", they were not calling humanity into a branch of reformed Islam..

I don't think the majority of Iranians would see it like that.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I don't think the majority of Iranians would see it like that.

That happens in every age muhammad_isa, every Messenger is the light at the end of our darkness. Only a few recognise them when a New Faith is born, from that dawn, the Light of God starts to penetrate the dark night of mankind's waywardness.

The sign of a true Messenger is that the Book (Words) are applicable to the age given.

Both the Bible, Quran and other Holy Sctell.us of a day when God's Kindom, as it is in Heaven, will permeate the minds of humanity. This never happens overnight, all past faiths show that it is centuries before the power of that Word permeates the majority.

That is what Faith in 'Christ' is all about, we must consider that we may need to see with new eyes and hear with the new ears, as change, both material and spiritual, is part of this creation.

Edit. I will add many of hundreds of thousands did see the new dawn, until the religious leaders closed the door to the light and kept all confined to the darkness.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

The sign of a true Messenger is that the Book (Words) are applicable to the age given..

..so Moses taught that eating pork was "unclean" i.e. not lawful
..and then Christians tell us that we should take literally "it's not what you put into your mouth".

..then the Quran was revealed to Muhammad, which says that pork is unlawful..
..and then you tell me that Abdul Baha says that it is now lawful again.

Forgive me, for telling you that the above is nonsensical.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

..so Moses taught that eating pork was "unclean" i.e. not lawful
..and then Christians tell us that we should take literally "it's not what you put into your mouth".

..then the Quran was revealed to Muhammad, which says that pork is unlawful..
..and then you tell me that Abdul Baha says that it is now lawful again.

Forgive me, for telling you that the above is nonsensical.

Another subject altogether, but your summary is not considering the whole story. Christians chose to eat pork and justify it. Abdul'baha said that eating meat is not unlawful under Baha'i Law, but humanity will not eat meat in the future. Abdul'baha told us why meat should not be eaten.

I do not eat red meat, especially pork.

Regards Tony