on Faith

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

To which I would reply you follow Jesus from a Baha'i frame of reference, to which I would say, why not go to the source?

Jesus stated Baptism was a necessity (John 3:5), yet the Baha'i do not baptise; Jesus instituted the Eucharist (Mark 14, Matthew 26, Luke 22, John 6, 1 Corinthians 10), yet the Baha'i do not celebrate.

Apart from following a generic and exoteric teaching, I don't really see an embrace of Jesus, or if any, only very superficially.

Just a change in the frame of reference Thomas. Baptisim with water is partaking of the Word of Christ and immersing oneself in service to humanity in virtues and morality and Baptisim with fire is the Love of God.

You can see why fire was left out as part of the process. ( Humor Thomas)

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Eventually, when a person has lost everything, then is when the surrender to God happens -- let God take over completely

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A crossroads is by definition a choice, is it not?
I've faced many, and I've had a lot of spiritual guidance

I personally see we are constantly faced with these choices. Looking back one can discern what we're good and what were not so good choices. Repentance is also a great bounty, a private connection with God to ask forgiveness.

Forgiveness is also a given bounty for humanity to embrace.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Eventually, when a person has lost everything, then is when the surrender to God happens -- let God take over completely

Have been there a couple of times RJM., how about you!

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

partaking of the Word of Christ

The word of Baha'u'llah, you mean?

The whole issue is whether or not the words of Baha'u'llah ARE the words of Christ.

It would be necessary to read the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels, in order to compare?

I personally see we are constantly faced with these choices. Looking back one can discern what we're good and what were not so good choices. Repentance is also a great bounty, a private connection with God to ask forgiveness.

Forgiveness is also a given bounty for humanity to embrace.

For God's sake, Tony -- I'm 70 years old and have spent most of my life thinking about this stuff. Why do you think you need to tell me this? Jesus said it all, long long ago

Have been there a couple of times RJM., how about you!

What I said ...

 

[Thomas]

Just a change in the frame of reference Thomas.

Anybody can claim 'frame of reference' as an argument to validate any point of view ... and clearly they have, and will continue to do so.

It's whether the frame of reference is valid or not, that's the point, and I have shown on numerous occassions that it's not, and you've not been able to counter that argument.

+++

I once watched a documentary on Islam. an image stays with me.

A father teaching his son how to wash himself – a very simple thing – but in the context of Islam it took on a particular sensibility. It was not merely washing, it was a symbolic action and, in its own way, a rite, and to my mind a sacramental act.

(Catholic definition of sacrament: outward sign of inward grace; grace signifying the indwelling of the spirit.)

+++

 

[Thomas]

You can see why fire was left out as part of the process. ( Humor Thomas)

LOL, more true than you realise ... fire is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

For God's sake, Tony. I'm 70 years old and have spent most of my life thinking about this stuff. Why do you think you need to tell me this? Jesus said it all, long long ago

The event you wait for, what you have included in your thinking for most of those 70 years has to me, no doubt happened.

Jesus promissed this would happen a long long time ago. Out of Love, all I can do is keep offering thoughts in the topic of Faith. The crossroad you face in faith will always be your choice, it may be you do not even see it as a crossroad, again, that could be because your focus is not on the possibility that the promise has been fulfilled. A long history of what people should expect has been predetermined, and many are focused on the predetermined probabilities.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It's whether the frame of reference is valid or not, that's the point, and I have shown on numerous occassions that it's not, and you've not been able to counter that argument.

That is because there would be no point Thomas, I know you are firm in Faith. All the points of negation are well covered in the Baha'i Writings, it would be irritating for everyone here, if I was to keep bringing up all those quotes. If we argue, we are both wrong, as no spark of truth will be brought to light.

I will only offer different points of view, to a certain point, as I am not able to change any mind, that is for God only to do and if we are both stuck in a frame of reference, we will get nowhere.

I do have to learn to listen more.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

That is because there would be no point Thomas, I know you are firm in Faith.

Thank you.

If we argue, we are both wrong, as no spark of truth will be brought to light.

I think otherwise, I'm a bit of a Paulist in that regard! (cf 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Where contention arises is your requirement to validate your faith by syncretic eisegesis with regard to the New Testament.

If you have a new frame of reference, a new scripture and a new revelation, then you should be able to stand by that alone. Your distortion (as Christianity sees it) of the New Testament texts only invites rebuke and correction.

Lord knows, the Baha'i texts are voluminous enough, you can't be saying they need the addition of the Tanakh, the New Testament or the Quran to be complete ... and if it does, then there's something wrong.

My best advice, if you seriously seek unity with the other Traditions, argue or discuss from your Scripture, but don't make reference to theirs.

 

[RJM]

The event you wait for, what you have included in your thinking for most of those 70 years has to me, no doubt happened.

I've been waiting? You may not understand what I think @Tony Bristow-Stagg although I've written about it over the years.

Out of Love, all I can do is keep offering thoughts in the topic of Faith.

Sigh ...

Faith in Baha'u'llah, you mean

Please at least have the respect to read the New Testament as an adult before lecturing Christians that they need to accept Baha'u'llah as the returned Christ, and to accept the Quran as an authority on the nature of Christ.

When last did you read the Quran, by the way?

My best advice, if you seriously seek unity with the other Traditions, argue or discuss from your Scripture, but don't make reference to theirs.

This ... unless you've made an effort to READ their scriptures

 

[RJM]

But honestly they've been a lot of threads and discussions about the Baha'i belief. The implication that people are not converting out ignorance or entrenched traditional stubbornness isn't right. Most believe they have weighed the evidence and found it wanting.

And this is why Baha'i apologists should read the New Testament scriptures to get a Christian understanding of the nature of Jesus Christ, before attempting to lecture Christians on their own faith.

And then it should become evident why although Baha'u'llah may have had some interesting ideas (which are open to discussion) and was obviously a charismatic individual -- that doesn't make him into the returned Christ -- not his writings into the inerrant word of God for the next 800 years.

There's nothing new there that Jesus has not already said and done

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, I do not partake of Alcohol.

Well, you are practically wasting your time. Remember, you do not get another chance.

Please at least have the respect to read the New Testament as an adult before lecturing Christians that they need to accept Baha'u'llah as the returned Christ, and to accept the Quran as an authority on the nature of Christ.

No, they do not read anything which is not approved and published by Bahai.org.

 

[wil]

I have faith that Tony will continue to push folks to continue to demand he be removed from yet another forum...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thank you.


I think otherwise, I'm a bit of a Paulist in that regard! (cf 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Where contention arises is your requirement to validate your faith by syncretic eisegesis with regard to the New Testament.

If you have a new frame of reference, a new scripture and a new revelation, then you should be able to stand by that alone. Your distortion (as Christianity sees it) of the New Testament texts only invites rebuke and correction.

Lord knows, the Baha'i texts are voluminous enough, you can't be saying they need the addition of the Tanakh, the New Testament or the Quran to be complete ... and if it does, then there's something wrong.

My best advice, if you seriously seek unity with the other Traditions, argue or discuss from your Scripture, but don't make reference to theirs.

That is impossible Thomas. It is like saying to not mention the Old Testament when pursuing and discussing the New Testament. The New Testament does stand on its own, but Jesus made reference to the Old Testament and was born as part of that Faith. Would you do away with the Tanakh?

The additional thought in this age is that Baha'u'llah has shown us how all the God given Faiths are from the One God, that intrinsically ties them and all the Words found in all the Scriptures together.

Passages such as this hint of a future to come.

John 17:21-23 KJV "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent..."

Sorry, had a bad night and now soon have to go to work, not able to give these replies much deeper thought before posting. Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Nope. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today; and the same for ever."

It's because you don't understand who Jesus is and what He is that you can assume His teaching has a 'best-by' date attached.

It is all about understanding who Christ is Thomas and we all could spend many a lifetimes doing that.

It is also all about God's Will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, that is my prayer.

Stay well, stay happy Thomas.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And this is why Baha'i apologists should read the New Testament scriptures to get a Christian understanding of the nature of Jesus Christ, before attempting to lecture Christians on their own faith

I can offer that one may have to consider if the Christian understanding on the nature of Jesus may be contributing to the problem?

It may be that this prevents a Christian from searching for the returned Christ, as the nature of Jesus has been obscured in the fear of false prophets.

Happy to leave it alone and stop discussion at anytime RJM. Please advise if that is the path you would like to me to take.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I have faith that Tony will continue to push folks to continue to demand he be removed from yet another forum...

We all need a push to change. Me in my way, you in yours.

No doubt the world needs to change away from tyranny, war, nationalism, racism, immorality and materialism.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Well, you are practically wasting your time. Remember, you do not get another chance.

The best times I ever had never needed to include alcohol.

I am happy to live this one chance without it.

Medicinal uses are what it is best for.

Regards Tony

 

[EricPH]

Faith for me, is very much about putting my trust in God. Like St Peter, when he saw Jesus walking on water, he wanted to walk on water to meet Jesus. Peter had to do two things, take the first step out of the safety of the boat. When Peter stood on the water, his own strength meant nothing, he would become totally dependant on Jesus, if he was to walk on water.

I have been a Street Pastor since 2008, we walk round the streets of our town until 3 - 5 am in the morning to care, listen and help when we can. We put our trust in God and go. Recently, we were out, and about three in the morning, about twenty people started a fight outside our local kebab shop, run by Muslims. We intervened, and tried to calm things. A car drew up and two big lads got out, one went to the boot of his car and took out two large ratchets, big enough to cave someone's head in. I said to the lad, put them back, but he ignored me, and went straight into the fight.

I went with him, but was knocked over, I got up, and somehow the big lad dropped both tools in front of me, I was able to pick them up and walk away with them. A lad grabbed me and told me to give him the weapons, I said no, and kept walking away. I was able to hide them in a bin round the corner. The fight, posturing, threats and shouting continued for over an hour before the police came. I am 74, and was with three ladies.

When we see people getting hurt, and we are near enough to do something, I have always felt compelled to help when we can. I still struggle to understand how prayer works, I know in these situations, I should feel fear and worry, we should stand back and wait for the police. I can’t explain the profound sense of peace I have in these situations, it is almost like they take my peace from me, and I absorb some of their anger. We do very little, other than stand in the middle, or stand next to angry people.

Trusting in God is profound, and beyond my understanding, we seem to be able to make a big difference.