The Archeology of the Kingdom of God: Diving a Bit Deeper into a Baha'i Approach to Metaphysics

OK, and each needs be understood in context. In the case of Jesus, it was the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove. With Muhammad (pbuh) it was the angel Gabriel, not the Holy Spirit, and so on.
The context from what I see in the Baha'i writings, is that the Holy Spirit took on each of those forms announcing the revelation of the anointment of those Messengers.

These are just names, attributes and stations of the same Holy Spirit, given of God.

Regards Tony
 
Some Answered Questions / 25: The Holy Spirit / pps107-109
Question.--What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.--The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God ...

Here we differ on an important if perhaps technical point, in that the Holy Spirit first and foremost is God; the Holy Spirit is not other-than God, and as such one can predicate qualities of the Holy Spirit – Bounty, Beauty, Goodness, and so on, but the Holy Spirit Itself transcends all distinctions, and all intelligible (human perception) qualities.
There are many passages now given in the Baha'i Writings about the Holy Spirit, it is great to talk about as my understanding of this can only evolve.

I may have to reconsider my current understanding of this concept, I had posted this on another forum, but in reading it again, it has shown me I need to again ponder this from different frames of references.

Most Great Spirit and Holy Spirit and their relations to Baha'u'llah – an explanation by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice

Mr. ... makes reference to Mr. Taherzadeh's "The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh", vol. IV, (Oxford: George Ronald, 1987), pp. 133-134, where mention is made of the fact that the Most Great Spirit "animated and sustained" Bahá'u'lláh. In light of this section, he enquires about the difference between the Holy Spirit and the Most Great Spirit.
The Research Department has, to date, not been able to locate a comprehensive definition of the term "Most Great Spirit" in the Writings or the letters of Shoghi Effendi. The discussion in Mr. Taherzadeh's book appears to be based, on part, on an extract from the Súriy-i-Haykal which states:

The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. (As translated and cited by Shoghi Effendi in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters", p. 109)

Shoghi Effendi has provided an interpretation of this extract in a letter dated 23 July 1936 written on his behalf to an individual believer in response to a series of questions about the relationship between the Holy Spirit and Bahá'u'lláh and His relationship to the other Manifestations of God. The letter states:
As to your question concerning the Holy Spirit and its relation to Bahá'u'lláh: the Holy Spirit may be well compared to the rays of the sun, and Bahá'u'lláh to a perfect mirror reflecting these rays which radiate from the sun. Briefly stated the comparison is this: God is the sun; the Holy Spirit is the rays of the sun; and Bahá'u'lláh is the mirror reflecting the rays of the sun. In the passage you have quoted from the "Súriy-i-Haykal" Bahá'u'lláh refers to His station of identity with God, to His reality which is Divine. In this passage it is really God speaking through Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'lláh is not the intermediary between God and the other Manifestations, although these are under His shadow, for the simple reason that the Messengers of God are all inherently one; it is their Message that differs. Bahá'u'lláh appearing at a time when the world has attained maturity, His message must necessarily surpass the message of all previous prophets. Not only so, but His message is potentially greater than any message which later prophets within His own cycle may reveal. This is because the stage of maturity is the most momentous stage in the evolution of mankind...

In "God Passes By" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), p. 101, Shoghi Effendi describes the coming of Revelation to Bahá'u'lláh in the Siyah-Chal and makes the following statement about how the "Most Great Spirit" was manifested symbolically in earlier Dispensations. He wrote:
...at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the "Most Great Spirit", as designated by Himself, and symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon, and revealed itself, personated by a "Maiden" to the agonized soul of Bahá'u'lláh.
From the foregoing, it appears that the term the "Most Great Spirit" is used to convey both the kindling of Revelation in the Manifestations of God and God speaking through His Manifestations
.
(From a memorandum dated 30 December 1991 prepared by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice and included in a letter dated December 30, 1992, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

Regards Tony
 
The context from what I see in the Baha'i writings, is that the Holy Spirit took on each of those forms announcing the revelation of the anointment of those Messengers.
These are just names, attributes and stations of the same Holy Spirit, given of God.
Well you'd have a problem convincing anyone in the Abrahamic Traditions in this point, as both their sacred texts and traditional commentaries clearly indicate otherwise.

An angel, for example, is not the Holy Spirit of God, nor a form thereof ...

In Bābī and Bahā'ī Angelology - an overview, it says this:
The Bahā'ī angelology or doctrine of angels (sing. Ar. malak, pl. malā'ika; Per. firishtih) is rooted in and interprets the scriptural references to angelic beings found in the Abrahamic (primarily Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and, to a lesser extent, Asian religious traditions (especially Zoroastrianism).

Though angelic beings of various kinds are mentioned in Bābī and Bahā'ī scripture this terminology is usually meant to be understood "spiritually" or "allegorically". Yet, as we shall see, the Baha'i spiritual cosmology affirms the existence of many worlds populated by an infinite number of spiritual beings, especially elevated humans who have entered the afterlife.

The bold emphasis is mine, and the 'especially' makes the point of not 'solely'.

It is the Baha'i belief that there exists and has always existed an otherworldly angelic type "supreme concourse" (mala' al-a`la = a biblicaly rooted qur'anic phrase) situated in the infinite worlds beyond this. This group is made up of developed human beings in worlds beyond this as well as pre-existent and ever-living mazhar-i ilahi (Manifestations of God) - including Moses, Zoroaster, the Buddhs Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah. They channel spiritual forces related to the "Holy Spirit" (ruh al-quds) which inspire human beings and thus directly contribute to the advance of human civilization. Progress in this world is intimately related in the Baha'i view to divine forces emanating from spiritual worlds beyond. In various of his scriptural Tablets (lawh pl.alwah) the founder of the Baha'i religion states :

"As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range... [Gl. LXXIX]...


Further commentary on the language of 'ascent' and 'descent', this:
... Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God ... It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure... If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.… The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men..
Quite so, here we have indications of a 'higher' and 'lower' in the journey of the soul, from earth (hopefully) to heaven.

While the nature of the soul and other matters remain something of a mystery to the sensible and intelligible sensoria, that does not mean we cannot talk about such matters – indeed we are called to do so – who can explain love? – to do so necessarily involves the language of analogy and metaphor, of poetry, to give form to supra-sensible realities and ideas, much in the same way that the higher domains reveal themselves in sensible and/or intelligible forms in the lower – such as doves, tongues of flame, etc., as befits.

The Holy Spirit appearing in the form of a dove is not arbitrary – the imagery of the dove was established in Genesis, signalling the receding waters, and took on a broader, sensible, mental and spiritual characteristics in, for example, the poetic, prophetic and psalmist texts of the Hebrew scriptures. In short, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove because the onlookers would the signification in a spiritual context – the term 'dove' suggests different things than the term 'pigeon'.

The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples... [Gl. LXXXI] ... (emphasis mine)

Lastly, suffice to say God is always and everywhere, there is nowhere where God is not, so ascend and descend, sending and receiving, coming and going, near and far, high and low, are all analogous terms for our better understanding, and lastly the realisation of 'within' and 'without'; that God is 'as close as my jugular vein', as Islam has it, or 'nearer to me than I am to myself' as Augustine would say.

He dwells in the deep dark silence, in the 'ground of our being', precisely because God is the Ground of All Being,

So 'ascent' and 'descent', 'straight path' and so on are merely terms that enable us, they are upaya as our Buddhist friends would say, an 'expedient means' to an end.
 
Mr. ... makes reference to Mr. Taherzadeh's "The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh", vol. IV, (Oxford: George Ronald, 1987), pp. 133-134, where mention is made of the fact that the Most Great Spirit "animated and sustained" Bahá'u'lláh. In light of this section, he enquires about the difference between the Holy Spirit and the Most Great Spirit.
The Research Department has, to date, not been able to locate a comprehensive definition of the term "Most Great Spirit" in the Writings or the letters of Shoghi Effendi.
It is problematic, in that it has no Abrahamic reference ...

The discussion in Mr. Taherzadeh's book appears to be based, on part, on an extract from the Súriy-i-Haykal which states:
The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. (As translated and cited by Shoghi Effendi in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters", p. 109)
The term 'generated' is unfortunate one in this context as it sets up problems which a more apposite term might have avoided.

'Generate' suggests temporal activity, and also increase and decrease, which is OK when talking of created natures and the like, but open to misinterpretation when applied to the Divine. God does not generate Himself – God is his Spirit, inasmuch as God can be said to be anything. It's like saying God generates his own Being, or His own existence. When we say 'God is love', we don't mean He generates love, it means 'love' is what God does, its inherent to Divinity ...

God is not a composite; there are no constituent parts. We may predicate this of God and that of God, His mercy, judgement, love, and so forth, but really they are apprehensions of the Divine Activity, God is Mercy, God is Love, and so on ... there is no distinction in God – God is One and Simple – there is no discontinuity between God and God's activities or powers, He suffers no constraint.

So drawing a distinction between 'Most Great Spirit' and 'Holy Spirit of God' suggests, to me a hierarchical and flawed dichotomy – God cannot be more God or a higher God than Themself.

The discussion about the divinity of manifestations is a much broader and looser debate ... and I do not wish to challenge Baha'i beliefs, rather only to defend my own tradition from erroneous interpretations ... or at least bring to light incompatibilities which, from my viewpoint, suggest metaphysical deficiencies.

+++

This is no reason why we should be at loggerheads – neither is seeking to win over the other – but in a more open world accept that there are distinctions and radical differences, not that one is right and one is wrong, just different ways.

We tried the supersessionist thing, it fails, so my advice, from an old tradition to a younger one, put that to one side. It just creates discord.
 
OK.

Firstly I would say 'intelligible reality' refers primarily to that which can be conceived in and by the intellect, rather than in and by the senses.
Okay.
I would then say that those intelligible realities – the objects of apprehension, if you will, cover different classes of things, as you have said; concepts, constructs, realities, and so forth.

Okay.
My point being that 'intelligible realities' does not infer all are the same class of thing. 'Man', 'dog', 'table', 'stone' are intelligible realities, having material existence. 'Mermaids' and 'unicorns' are intelligible realities without any substantial existence. 'Love', 'justice' and 'beauty', as you say.

Okay.
Therefore that a thing is an intelligible reality does not mean it has all the same qualities or belongs to the same category as every other intelligible reality – other than it is intelligible.

Okay.
I tend to see the framework as flawed – the Holy Spirit of God belongs in a class of its own, it is Divine, and thus is unlike any other thing.

I think you missed the point.

First: Both intelligible realities and the Holy Spirit are described in Baha'i texts as immaterial, meaning they have no outward form or place and are not perceptible by the senses. Both intelligible realities and the Holy Spirit share the common trait of immateriality. This suggests that being immaterial is a characteristic, not a limitation.

Second point: Just because the Holy Spirit is divine doesn't mean it can't be classified as an intelligible reality while also being beyond human senses and divine.

Third point: It is impossible for immaterial realities to "ascend, descend, enter, exit, commingle, or inhere," so they obviously don't move through time and space like a physical object. Ancient Christian literalists had no problem with holy doves descending from, uh, an opening in heaven, and I think this strongly implies they also thought in terms of physical descent of immaterial realities too.
 
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The initial point was whether the Holy Spirit can be said to 'ascend' or 'descend', to 'indwell', to which my assertion is yes.

My answer is no. In asserting "yes" we become time-bound and time-warped.

much in the same way that the higher domains reveal themselves in sensible and/or intelligible forms in the lower – such as doves, tongues of flame, etc., as befits.

Stars too. We know large swaths of the ancient world believed them to be celestial beings across a variety of cultures. Those stars were not just symbols, my friend. Today we know stars are not celestial beings (such as angels and so on).
 
OK. I have no issue with what he says in this regard.
Let's quote it again:

"When the said Spirit was in this condition, He was as truly a dove as He was also a spirit; nor did He destroy His own proper substance by the assumption of an extraneous substance. But you ask what becomes of the dove's body, after the return of the Spirit back to heaven, and similarly in the case of the angels. Their withdrawal was effected in the same manner as their appearance had been. If you had seen how their production out of nothing had been effected, you would have known also the process of their return to nothing. If the initial step was out of sight, so was also the final one. Still there was solidity in their bodily substance, whatever may have been the force by which the body became visible. What is written cannot but have been."

I have a problem with it. It is similar to the ancient world's view of stars too.
 
First: Both intelligible realities and the Holy Spirit are described in Baha'i texts as immaterial, meaning they have no outward form or place and are not perceptible by the senses.
OK. To be fair, neither does God, but both our texts speak in terms of 'above' and 'below'...

Both intelligible realities and the Holy Spirit share the common trait of immateriality. This suggests that being immaterial is a characteristic, not a limitation.
I have not put any limitation on the Holy Spirit ... I was pointing out the Baha'i text in question engenders a false limitation to declare what the Holy Spirit can or cannot do. Speaking of the Holy Spirit ascending or descending, etc., is a figurative device, as the Holy Spirit of God is Infinite, and everywhere – 'For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring' (St Paul, referencing Epimenides (17:28a) and Aratus (17:28b).)

Both intelligible realities and the Holy Spirit share the common trait of immateriality. This suggests that being immaterial is a characteristic, not a limitation.
They are common in their immateriality, but are unalike in other aspects of their natures.

Second point: Just because the Holy Spirit is divine doesn't mean it can't be classified as an intelligible reality while also being beyond human senses and divine.
Didn't say it can't – clearly it can, but it belongs to a different and unique class of intelligibility.

Third point: It is impossible for immaterial realities to "ascend, descend, enter, exit, commingle, or inhere," so they obviously don't move through time and space like a physical object.
May 29 is known as "The Ascension of Baha'u'llah" – so take it up with your people.

For us, such language is entirely suited to its purpose and pedagogy of the spiritual and mystical in the traditions, including yours – so you'd have to say that the Baha'i texts equally present impossible analogies.

I think you're flogging a dead horse, to use a common analogy.

Ancient Christian literalists had no problem with holy doves descending from, uh, an opening in heaven, and I think this strongly implies they also thought in terms of physical descent of immaterial realities too.
No, I'm afraid here you're trying to rationalise both Scripture and Tradition with an unsound understanding of what we mean by the mysteries, and how we understand the relationship between Creator and creation – so some Fathers argue for a physical dove, but they make the point that the dove in question was brought into being from God and thus 'descended' rather than simply appear on Jesus' shoulder – nor, they claim, was said dove born of an egg as is the normal course ...

... I'd say the best of them were meta-literalists, which I think you miss.

David Bentley Hart happens to argue, and I tend to agree, that the Ancients were far less 'literalist' in their outlook than we are today – this whole discussion is about an overtly literal and 'dead letter' reading of that which is clearly spiritual and thus speaks in figurative terms.

The Ancients fully understood figurative language – its there in their writings, to say otherwise is to fly in the face of the evidence – but they also saw that God can manifest what He wills and as He wills without the limitations of the rationalising human intellect. If He wants a dove, a dove it is – They rather tend to understand the Scriptures better than we do today – they're closer to it, after all.

Christ taught in parables, and the Ancient languages are full of analogy, metaphor, poetic allusion, narrative forms.

Hebrew makes use of chiasmus, a particular narrative form – they were way more subtle and sophisticated than you seem to allow.

The Ancient Hebrew Chiasm: A Window into Culturally Significant Themes
by Hannah Eckerman
"Rhetoric is culturally constructed. No universal rhetoric exists but is built on a culture’s ideas, beliefs, history, and art. We take on the cultural mindset of the rhetor when we read their texts, otherwise, we lose the depth and beauty hidden within their words. When we read Ancient Greek literature, we must learn some of their background and context. When we read Jane Austen, we need to understand the social structures at work in 19th England. Therefore, when we read the Hebrew Tanakh or any ancient Hebrew text, we need to approach it with cultural context. In this essay, I provide the historical background and cultural context necessary to understand a common, yet powerful, linguistic structure used by the ancient Hebrews in their sacred writings. Once terms are defined, I explore examples from their writing to give us insight into religiously significant ideas. Ultimately, I argue that the chiasm, an ancient Hebrew linguistic tool, conveys culturally significant themes in the middle X point of the chiastic structure."
 
Let's quote it again:

"When the said Spirit was in this condition, He was as truly a dove as He was also a spirit ...
I have a problem with it. It is similar to the ancient world's view of stars too.
I can see that, but that's your problem, I've tried to help as much as I can, but you will have to allow the efficacy of 'figurative language' in the first instance, and 'miracle' in the second.

I can see the second could be a stumbling block for you, although from the briefest of checks, it seems that Baha'u'llah says both God and the Messengers can and have performed miracles, and that the Bab and Baha'u'llah have done so.

Miracles are never gratuitous, which is why St John in his gospel calls them 'signs' – they are signifiers, sensible forms of spiritual realities, and I think the Baha'i writings follows the same line.
 
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OK. To be fair, neither does God, but both our texts speak in terms of 'above' and 'below'...

Yes, but many ancient Christians didn't just see "below" in a symbolic way. In fact, many ancient Christians believed in a literal hell that was literally underneath our feet. The flames were taken literally too.

Therein is the rub, my friend.

I have not put any limitation on the Holy Spirit ... I was pointing out the Baha'i text in question engenders a false limitation to declare what the Holy Spirit can or cannot do.

Well, I call it a characteristic, but you call it a limitation.

The concept of the Holy Spirit's unlimited agency can create paradoxes. For example, one could argue that, although the Holy Spirit has the power to do anything, it will only do what is right and just, not what is harmful, such as acting in a way that is contrary to attributes like love, justice, and holiness. One could view this in terms of setting "limitations" as well no matter how passionately you argue otherwise that these are characteristics of the Holy Spirit and not limitations. Same difference.

Speaking of the Holy Spirit ascending or descending, etc., is a figurative device, as the Holy Spirit of God is Infinite, and everywhere – 'For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring' (St Paul, referencing Epimenides (17:28a) and Aratus (17:28b).)

If a real dove that is the Holy Spirit descended through physical space as we saw many Christians argue, then it is no longer just a figurative device, @Thomas.

Let's look at what Ignatius, who Catholic tradition says learned from an apostle of Christ, has to say about stars in his letter to the Ephesians, for he says the star is the Lord himself, not just a symbol:

"Now, the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God. How, then, was He manifested to the world? A star shone forth in heaven, above all of the other stars, the light of which was inexpressible, while its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this star, and its light was exceedingly great above them all. And there was agitation felt as to whence this new spectacle came, so unlike to everything else [in the heavens]. Hence, every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished. God Himself was being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning, which had been prepared by God. Henceforth, all things were in a state of tumult because He meditated the abolition of death."

This confirms the ancient world's view of stars in general: for the most part they were thought to be celestial beings, not mere symbols of celestial beings, and some believe they descended through space and time just like a meteorite descends through space and time to our planet.

They are common in their immateriality, but are unalike in other aspects of their natures.

The descriptions of divine beings assuming various forms is a common characteristic across many cultures in the ancient world. It simply reflects their explanation of events, not the reality of events themselves.

May 29 is known as "The Ascension of Baha'u'llah" – so take it up with your people.

Don't know of any Baha'is that believe Baha'u'llah ascended in the sky in a literal way, though. I know plenty of Christians that believe Christ ascended in the sky in a literal way.

For us, such language is entirely suited to its purpose and pedagogy of the spiritual and mystical in the traditions, including yours – so you'd have to say that the Baha'i texts equally present impossible analogies.

I am familiar with analogies, but I think you're overlooking the ignorance of the ancients and their view of the cosmos.

I think you're flogging a dead horse, to use a common analogy.

And your arguments are like a broken record.

No, I'm afraid here you're trying to rationalise both Scripture and Tradition with an unsound understanding of what we mean by the mysteries,

Sorry, I am just reading the writings of ancient Christians, and I am blown away by their literalism.

and how we understand the relationship between Creator and creation – so some Fathers argue for a physical dove, but they make the point that the dove in question was brought into being from God and thus 'descended' rather than simply appear on Jesus' shoulder

Exactly. That dove descended through space and time.

– nor, they claim, was said dove born of an egg as is the normal course ...

I never argued that.

... I'd say the best of them were meta-literalists, which I think you miss.

Hasn't flown past me. Most ancient people were, believing gods descend from the stars with the ability to take on any shape or form.

David Bentley Hart happens to argue, and I tend to agree, that the Ancients were far less 'literalist' in their outlook than we are today

This is hilarious, because DBH wrote a book that's over 200 pages on the afterlife, arguing against those that believe in a literal hell. He calls such people "infernalists." Tertullian, an early Christian I mentioned earlier, was one among many. Those flames were not mere symbols in his eyes.
 
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I can see the second could be a stumbling block for you, although from the briefest of checks, it seems that Baha'u'llah says both God and the Messengers can and have performed miracles, and that the Bab and Baha'u'llah have done so.

But a miracle isn't central to the Baha'i Faith. In fact, a miracle isn't even important.

"In brief, the honour and glory of those sanctified Souls, the Manifestations of God, are due to Their heavenly perfections, outpourings, and splendours, and to nothing else."
-Abdu'l-Baha
 
Yes, but many ancient Christians didn't just see "below" in a symbolic way.
Nevertheless, that doesn't change anything, really. It doesn't invalidate the core point.

There have and there are always literalists.

Well, I call it a characteristic, but you call it a limitation.
No, I'm saying the limitation is yours. Where do I 'limit' the Holy Spirit?

The concept of the Holy Spirit's unlimited agency can create paradoxes. For example, one could argue that, although the Holy Spirit has the power to do anything, it will only do what is right and just, not what is harmful, such as acting in a way that is contrary to attributes like love, justice, and holiness. One could view this in terms of setting "limitations" as well no matter how passionately you argue otherwise that these are characteristics of the Holy Spirit and not limitations. Same difference.
Not really. God wills as God wills. The idea of the Divine willing contrary to His own will is a logical nonsense.

If a real dove that is the Holy Spirit descended through physical space as we saw many Christians argue, then it is no longer just a figurative device, @Thomas
No, it's a miraculous event.

natius, who Catholic tradition says learned from an apostle of Christ, has to say about stars in his letter to the Ephesians, for he says the star is the Lord himself, not just a symbol:

This confirms the ancient world's view of stars in general: for the most part they were thought to be celestial beings, not mere symbols of celestial beings, and some believe they descended through space and time just like a meteorite descends through space and time to our planet.
I'm sorry, but it does no such thing.

The descriptions of divine beings assuming various forms is a common characteristic across many cultures in the ancient world. It simply reflects their explanation of events, not the reality of events themselves.
This is a repetition of Bultmann's logical error ... the fact that some events are 'mythical' does not thereby mean all are.

Don't know of any Baha'is that believe Baha'u'llah ascended in the sky in a literal way, though. I know plenty of Christians that believe Christ ascended in the sky in a literal way.
Yes, he did, Baha'u'llah didn't, but that, again, is beside the point.

You have said spiritual ascent is impossible ... and the Baha'i's 'ascent of Baha'u'llah is thereby impossible ... what do you say to the Baha'i faithful when they speak in such terms?

I am familiar with analogies, but I think you're overlooking the ignorance of the ancients and their view of the cosmos.
I think you treat them too harshly when you read everything literally.

And your arguments are like a broken record.
In response to yours.

Sorry, I am just reading the writings of ancient Christians, and I am blown away by their literalism.
That's probably your reading, and not their intention – it's called eisegesis – you're finding what you're looking for, whether it's there or not.

Exactly. That dove descended through space and time.
Yep

I never argued that.
I know, I was just making the point that the manifestation of the dove is a miracle.

Hasn't flown past me. Most ancient people were, believing gods descend from the stars with the ability to take on any shape or form.
OK. Jews didn't, however ...

This is hilarious, because DBH wrote a book that's over 200 pages on the afterlife, arguing against those that believe in a literal hell. He calls such people "infernalists." Tertullian, an early Christian I mentioned earlier, was one among many. Those flames were not mere symbols in his eyes.
Read him again. DBH believes in hell, just not in ann eternal hell.

He also bases his rejection of the eternity of hell on sound, early Christian theology, so some, at least, were clearly not the literalists you take them to be.

+++

We've wandered far off the point. To recap:
My issue with Some Questions Answered Q25 on the Christian idea of the Holy Spirit is that argument treats figurative language literally, which is clearly not the case. Thus the argument fails.

That was always my point, and you've gone quite far in circumvention, but not really addressed the point.

I'm not attacking your belief, just saying that the Baha'i critique of a particular Christian doctrine fails.
 
Yes, he did, Baha'u'llah didn't, but that, again, is beside the point.

You have said spiritual ascent is impossible ... and the Baha'i's 'ascent of Baha'u'llah is thereby impossible ... what do you say to the Baha'i faithful when they speak in such terms?
The way I understand it in relation to what is offered in the scriptures is a change of consciousness. When our phisical heart stops, the transition begins, we are not conscious of this world, we are released from the senses and the flesh, we awaken in worlds to come, we are drawn to the kingdoms of light, that is the Messengers

Examples is NDE experiences and dreams, they are great bounties, giving glimpses of the possibilities of embracing Faith and the pains of rejecting faith. Most that have an NDE do not want to return to their bodies.

We close our eyes to this world and open them in the kingdom/s to come.

Thus is why Jesus says this in John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence".

That is the purpose of being born again, born from the flesh into the spirit, born before we literally die, the purpose of this Matrix.

Regards Tony
 
I think you treat them too harshly when you read everything literally.
I see this is just brushing over the point Ahanu is making.

I see you are still also offering literal flesh body based interpretations have validity in miraculous events, when Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing. It is temporal temple of the soul, only if we treat it in the light of God's Message and Laws.

The Messengers are the embodiment of the Message and the Laws, thus they are the perfect Temple, the image we are made in.

Interestingly many await a 3rd temple, Baha'u'llah offered this in the Súriy-i-Haykal / Súrih of the Temple, which contains Baha'u'llah proclamation to all the Kings, Rulers, Divines and peoples of the earth.

"..Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words “Be and it is”..."

Regards Tony
 
I'm not attacking your belief, just saying that the Baha'i critique of a particular Christian doctrine fails.
Personally I see the Word of God is a sword, inherently it is given to cut the old from the new. There is no intention from anyone who embraces that Word in attacking any other person, it is an unavoidable consequence, as those that do not embrace that new message, will see it as an attack. Jesus supports this, you would know the passages.

In reality Thomas, this is a internal battle, our own self vs the Word of God and God's given laws.

In that light, I would offer the critiques given in the Baha'i Writings of past doctrines, that have come from the minds of men based on religious scriptures, open the door for us to use science in a meaningful way, to rid ourselves of religious superstitions and then to use Faith in God to balance our animal tendencies in the destruction of humanity.

Passages such as the following become very real in doctrinal interpretations, as we can consider when we are adding to the meaning of the words of the book, that we might no have the authority to do that.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words,lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Regards Tony
 
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Read him again. DBH believes in hell, just not in ann eternal hell.

I don't need to. My apologies, because I didn't word what I said very well in the previous post. I understand DBH believes in a real hell, but his hell isn't filled with real flames, for example.

He also bases his rejection of the eternity of hell on sound, early Christian theology, so some, at least, were clearly not the literalists you take them to be.

While I acknowledge that early Christian thought included a significant amount of symbolism, it's important to recognize the prevalence of literalism as well. The idea that early Christians primarily interpreted biblical texts allegorically or symbolically is an oversimplification.

For example, while Origen interpreted the flames of hell symbolically, he viewed the firmament as a physical, solid entity, stating that the firmament is “without doubt, firm and solid…. [T]his heaven, that is, the firmament, is corporal" in his commentary on Genesis. Many, many Christians, including St. Augustine, followed the same thinking. Thomas Aquinas, faced with the challenge of reconciling biblical descriptions with the scientific understanding of his day, proposed that Moses used the term "water" to refer to "air" in order to communicate effectively with his audience. It's a clear example of how Christians move the goal posts despite the Bible clearly being literal and not symbolic in this instance. I feel the same way whenever any Catholic today tells me Jesus dissolved during the ascension to fit the scientific understanding of our day. Here is a cute cat that expresses how I feel:

giphy.webp
 
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While I acknowledge that early Christian thought included a significant amount of symbolism, it's important to recognize the prevalence of literalism as well. The idea that early Christians primarily interpreted biblical texts allegorically or symbolically is an oversimplification.
I'm inclined to side with DBH on this point.

Here is a cute cat that expresses how I feel:

giphy.webp
Well OK, I can see how you feel that way, Clearly we see things differently.
 
I see this is just brushing over the point Ahanu is making.
I don't think so. as I see it, there's an over-insistence on a literal reading, when clearly Christians had a priori accepted from the Jews a literal and a spiritual reading of scripture.

Paul in Galatians 4, for example, offers an example of the 'literal' and 'spiritual' reading.

Jesus told his disciples He preached in parables, and they knew and understood what He meant, that each understood according to their own capacities – again, the Buddhist term 'upaya' (expedient device).

Jewish 'wisdom' literature goes back to Solomon, and further still, in the regional traditions – Egyptian and Mesopotamian writings – the former dating back some 3,000 years before Christ.

Again, with and following DBH and others, I regard the Ancients as neither so fixed nor so rigid in their distinctions between the two, rather they regarded the world as much more permeable than we modernists might allow, and we tend to read either/or, whereas the case might be and/and; 'as above, so below', that sort of thing.

I see you are still also offering literal flesh body based interpretations have validity in miraculous events, when Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing. It is temporal temple of the soul, only if we treat it in the light of God's Message and Laws.
Well 'miracle' by definition usually has some physical element.

As ever, Jesus' statements needs to be understood in context, John 6 is the 'Bread of Life' discourse that follows two miracles, the feeding of the five thousand and Jesus' walking on the water – both physical events with a spiritual significance – that the flesh can achieve nothing without God, not that the body is worthless. One should draw too close a gnostic/dualist distinction here – it's deeper than that.
 
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