The Archeology of the Kingdom of God: Diving a Bit Deeper into a Baha'i Approach to Metaphysics

Thomas said:
The Holy Spirit can rest in the soul of whomsoever the Holy Spirit chooses; the Holy Spirit activates faith in a sense beyond our own convictions, and the presence of the Holy Spirit in and to the individual is an anointing, but it may be private in the sense that the individual knows 'nothing' other than their faith is not in vain.
Click to expand...
This is where we will differ, I do not see the Bible supports that interpretation, mainly because we have tge Quran and the Baha'i Writings to clarify some Biblical statements.
God annoints the Messengers with the Holy Spirit.

We embrace the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith, a Spirit we are created from, thus we cling to the hem of the robes of the Messengers.

We have been given many prayers with that theme, a couple of extract examples.

"...I am he, O my God, that hath clung to the resplendent hem of Thy robe, and taken hold on Thy strong cord that none can sever.."

"...Thou seest me turning towards Thee, holding fast unto the cord of Thy bounty, clinging to the hem of Thy generosity, acknowledging the sanctity of Thy Self..."

Sorry running late for work.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This is where we will differ, I do not see the Bible supports that interpretation, mainly because we have tge Quran and the Baha'i Writings to clarify some Biblical statements.
God annoints the Messengers with the Holy Spirit.

We embrace the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith, a Spirit we are created from, thus we cling to the hem of the robes of the Messengers.

We have been given many prayers with that theme, a couple of extract examples.

"...I am he, O my God, that hath clung to the resplendent hem of Thy robe, and taken hold on Thy strong cord that none can sever.."

"...Thou seest me turning towards Thee, holding fast unto the cord of Thy bounty, clinging to the hem of Thy generosity, acknowledging the sanctity of Thy Self..."

Sorry running late for work.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
I would have edited that, but it was later than 20 minutes, that time limit is not long.

This is where we see things in a different light, as I do not see the Bible supports the interpretation of us being Annointed by God. This is mainly because we now have the Quran and the Baha'i Writings to clarify some Biblical statements. I see all passages in the Bible about Annointed Ones, is about God annointing the Messengers with the Holy Spirit.

As a human being born of the human spirit and not Annointed, I see we embrace the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith, a Spirit we are created from, thus we cling to the hem of the robes of the Messengers.

We have been given many prayers with that theme, a couple of extract examples.

"...I am he, O my God, that hath clung to the resplendent hem of Thy robe, and taken hold on Thy strong cord that none can sever.."

"...Thou seest me turning towards Thee, holding fast unto the cord of Thy bounty, clinging to the hem of Thy generosity, acknowledging the sanctity of Thy Self..."

Sorry running late for work.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I personally see our understanding of natural law is currently extremely limited.
Click to expand...
Well I'm using the current scientific understanding of miracle. In essence, that's not going to change.

More to the point, Christianity believes in miracles. The Baha'i believe in miracles ... and yet you seem to be trying to present opposition where there is none?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
With the resurrection, we only have to listen to Jesus who clarifies true life. "My kingdom is not of this world". Logically, if we come One in Christ, our kingdom is also not of this world."
Click to expand...
If we are one with Him, but if not, then we are still of the world. But – logically – as the Baha'i teach only a moral union, we're worlds apart here.

John 18:36: “My kingdom is not of this world."
To fully understand this, one has to read it in context with Christ's condemnation of "the prince of this world" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and furthermore his comment: "I pray not for the world" (John 17:9).

This involves Christian theology. I'll start a separate thread, as this is the Baha'i forum.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Why do we not turn the cheek and become a friend of Jesus, rather than servants?
Click to expand...
Because we lack faith ... if you really believed in Jesus, Jesus would suffice ...
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I can only offer that Baha'u'llah has explained this in much greater detail. The Kitab-i-iqan being the source of many of those answers.
Click to expand...
I can only repeat, as I have consistently stated, when it comes to understanding Christian doctrine, I find the explanations flawed.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
In the station of the Annointed One, (Annointed of the Holy Spirit, they have access to all the knowledge as given to them by God, as a human, they are a man like us.
Click to expand...
Ah ... 'access to all the knowledge as given to them by God' is what I was saying, you said they knew 'the beginning, the end and everything in between', which is not the case.

I also think the Baha'i offers the Messengers as something like an intermediate being, human, but more than human?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That is why many do not see Christ in all the Messengers, they embrace the person of the Messengers and do not look for the Essence that has Annointed them, One and All, The Word of God.
Click to expand...
Or perhaps they relate directly to the source ...
 
Thomas said:
Well I'm using the current scientific understanding of miracle. In essence, that's not going to change.

More to the point, Christianity believes in miracles. The Baha'i believe in miracles ... and yet you seem to be trying to present opposition where there is none?
Click to expand...
The point is, that they do not ultimately prove who is a Messenger from God.

If one accepts the miracles of Christ, as demonstrated by Jesus as a proof of a Messiah, then they must also accept those of Muhammad, or any of the Messengers.

If one rejects the miracles of other Messengers as proof, they are not valid for Jesus also.

Jesus does not use them as a proof of a Prophet, Jesus answered as to how we would know a prophet, and miracles was not included, in fact at times Jesus says tell no one of them.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Because we lack faith ... if you really believed in Jesus, Jesus would suffice ...
Click to expand...
Christ does suffice, as that is who Jesus is, as confirmed by Peter.

One would declare Jesus is the "Christ", if they know who Jesus was.

Regards Tony
 
muhammad_isa said:
Hmmm .. there seems to be some confusion, here.

Jesus is believed to be the Jewish Messiah by Christians (and Muslims) .. literally 'the anointed one'.
However, it's possible to be anointed in general, and does not share the same significance.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the annointed of the Holy Spirit by God is the domain of the Messiah/Messengers.

For us, we are required to embrace the Holy Spirit by an act of Faith. I see this gift of faith as a gift given by God.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
My understanding is that the annointed of the Holy Spirit by God is the domain of the Messiah/Messengers.

For us, we are required to embrace the Holy Spirit by an act of Faith. I see this gift of faith as a gift given by God.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
God knows best about specific details .. but there is clearly a difference between a prophet and ourselves.
They were chosen by God, and they are relatively sinless.

The rest of us, well .. we cannot achieve that degree of faith .. but we should try our best, as
we only let ourselves down. God, the Most High, has no needs ..

We will be asked about what we claim about God, so it's probably best to stick to the core,
and not waffle on about our guesswork. :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
God knows best about specific details .. but there is clearly a difference between a prophet and ourselves.
They were chosen by God, and they are relatively sinless.

The rest of us, well .. we cannot achieve that degree of faith .. but we should try our best, as
we only let ourselves down. God, the Most High, has no needs ..

We will be asked about what we claim about God, so it's probably best to stick to the core,
and not waffle on about our guesswork. :)
Click to expand...
My thought will be we will he asked of what we have done to support our faith, that our deeds have reflected our words.

Jesus said, if we want to follow him, he did not say waffle on about what we think, but to pick up the cross and follow his lead and most importantly spread that type of faith to all that want to hear and likewise emulate.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The point is, that they do not ultimately prove who is a Messenger from God.
Click to expand...
No-one says they do?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
If one accepts the miracles of Christ, as demonstrated by Jesus as a proof of a Messiah, then they must also accept those of Muhammad, or any of the Messengers.
Click to expand...
Then one has to seek to understand what the 'sign' or 'miracle' signifies, as not all miracles are offered as proof of messianic status – the Hebrew prophets performed miracles.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Jesus does not use them as a proof of a Prophet ...
Click to expand...
Quite right. Jesus' miracles are signs, given in accordance with His mission – the miracles or signs (as John prefers) recorded in Scripture are some, not all, of the wonders He performed. Their inclusion in the text needs to be read and understood against context.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Christ does suffice ...
Click to expand...
My point rather was, if one accepts Christ wholly, there is no need of any other ... from a Christian pov one can only read the Christ of the Baha'i as a rationalised and redacted version of the Christ of Scripture.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
My understanding is that the annointed of the Holy Spirit by God is the domain of the Messiah/Messengers.
Click to expand...
Ah, well ... that's not what the Bible says, and between the two, I go with the Bible on this one.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
For us, we are required to embrace the Holy Spirit by an act of Faith ...
Click to expand...
Which brings us round again to how we perceive the Holy Spirit ... again, as I said regarding Jesus, the Baha'i version is a rationalised and redacted version of Holy Spirit of Scripture.
 
Thomas said:
Then one has to seek to understand what the 'sign' or 'miracle' signifies, as not all miracles are offered as proof of messianic status – the Hebrew prophets performed miracles.
Click to expand...
Their true mission is the hearts of humanity, to bind us as one in the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
My point rather was, if one accepts Christ wholly, there is no need of any other ... from a Christian pov one can only read the Christ of the Baha'i as a rationalised and redacted version of the Christ of Scripture.
Click to expand...
Another way to see this is that Christ is all the colours of the Rainbow in this prism of creation, All the Names and Attributes of God, from the Beginning until the End are of Christ.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Ah, well ... that's not what the Bible says, and between the two, I go with the Bible on this one.


Which brings us round again to how we perceive the Holy Spirit ... again, as I said regarding Jesus, the Baha'i version is a rationalised and redacted version of Holy Spirit of Scripture.
Click to expand...
I would offer it is only the interpretation of the scriptures, and even in the AD600's a clarification by Muhammad was made on this topic, which would assist us in this interpretation.

I offer Quran 4:171

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allāh except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allāh and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allāh and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allāh is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allāh as Disposer of affairs..."

This has other Quran and Baha'i Writings explanations.

All the best Thomas, thanks for the discussion. Regards Tony
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top