wil
UNeyeR1
Anpther death, she ain't contained....although we may not see any federal interference in states handling.
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Ignoring Vaccines
- Thread starter Nicholas Weeks
- Start date
@moralorel – let's sense check here.
If, for example, if someone were the carrier of a highly infectious and potentially fatal disease, the state would exercise it's right to isolate said person for the public good. The same way the state has the right to incarcerate felons who would rather not be in jail, or conscript people to fight a war, knowing a percentage of those selected will become casualties.
The idea that my personal rights and freedoms supersedes the rights of the state is a fantasy.
The idea that by so doing is an abuse to my rights and freedoms is equally not the case.
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It is more the case that reactions to vaccines are relatively minor, if inconvenient. Flu vaccines can stimulate a flu-like reaction. I had an ache in my arm for a short while. Polio vaccines can cause 'aches and pains' but I'll happily risk that, than risk polio ... No vaccine is safe, so everyone has to weigh risk and reward.
In the UK there was a famous case of a paper that linked the MMR vaccine to autism. The media picked it up and the popular press went into a frenzy. By the time peer-review caught up with the paper, it was demonstrably nonsense, garbage for a whole number of reasons ... but the damage had been done, and still reverberates today.
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I'm just trying to balance the argument for the sake of reason. I feel all sympathy for your loss and your situation, and I support those who, for sound and solid reasons, choose not to take a vaccine.
But I have little sympathy for anyone who gets their argument off YouTube, Instagram or TikTok, or the pronouncements of right-wing think-tanks with a clear and evident agenda.
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I am under no illusion about Big Pharma. Anyone who knows anything about the Oxycontin / Fentanyl fiasco should be in no doubt. I happen to know personally a survivor of the UK 'hepatitis blood scandal' of the 1990s, plasma bought from the US where Big Pharma saw a way of making a fast and dirty buck.
My particular beef is with Processed Foods, which I happen to think, is bad for us all. We make a fuss about vaccines, but eat 'convenience food' which is pumped full of vaccines, antibiotics, etc., etc.
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Nothing against you guys, you understand, and I'm not exonerating the UK or Europe, rather, I think it's where corporates get bigger, the scale of abuses increases proportionally.
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But states have to deal with the public as a whole ... their responsibility is to the public, as a whole.
If, for example, if someone were the carrier of a highly infectious and potentially fatal disease, the state would exercise it's right to isolate said person for the public good. The same way the state has the right to incarcerate felons who would rather not be in jail, or conscript people to fight a war, knowing a percentage of those selected will become casualties.
The idea that my personal rights and freedoms supersedes the rights of the state is a fantasy.
The idea that by so doing is an abuse to my rights and freedoms is equally not the case.
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OK, but very rarely dangerous, so the number is significantly fewer than those who will benefit – that is a decision the state has to make – at what point is a vaccine's danger outweigh its benefits to the public?
It is more the case that reactions to vaccines are relatively minor, if inconvenient. Flu vaccines can stimulate a flu-like reaction. I had an ache in my arm for a short while. Polio vaccines can cause 'aches and pains' but I'll happily risk that, than risk polio ... No vaccine is safe, so everyone has to weigh risk and reward.
In the UK there was a famous case of a paper that linked the MMR vaccine to autism. The media picked it up and the popular press went into a frenzy. By the time peer-review caught up with the paper, it was demonstrably nonsense, garbage for a whole number of reasons ... but the damage had been done, and still reverberates today.
Well there you go. Clear grounds for exemption. They were in place from the get-go in the UK. Was that not the case in the US?
This is a silly statement.
Many families were devastated by COVID, many, many families.
And you explain to families grieving lost loved ones that because some people chose their 'civil rights' over the 'common good', they helped spread the virus.
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I'm just trying to balance the argument for the sake of reason. I feel all sympathy for your loss and your situation, and I support those who, for sound and solid reasons, choose not to take a vaccine.
But I have little sympathy for anyone who gets their argument off YouTube, Instagram or TikTok, or the pronouncements of right-wing think-tanks with a clear and evident agenda.
+++
I am under no illusion about Big Pharma. Anyone who knows anything about the Oxycontin / Fentanyl fiasco should be in no doubt. I happen to know personally a survivor of the UK 'hepatitis blood scandal' of the 1990s, plasma bought from the US where Big Pharma saw a way of making a fast and dirty buck.
My particular beef is with Processed Foods, which I happen to think, is bad for us all. We make a fuss about vaccines, but eat 'convenience food' which is pumped full of vaccines, antibiotics, etc., etc.
+++
Nothing against you guys, you understand, and I'm not exonerating the UK or Europe, rather, I think it's where corporates get bigger, the scale of abuses increases proportionally.
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wil
UNeyeR1
At what point does your scale tip?
So much for keeping it..."in house" or under control.
Measles Outbreak Grows: Here's Where Cases Are Spreading In The U.S.
Texas remains the state with the highest number of cases, by far.
www.forbes.com
moralorel
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Now compare that to the people who were killed by vaccines, especially Covid. Since you trust drug companies and government agencies, I'm sure they readily hand over this information. I'm also certain that they are more than forthcoming when it comes to people who have been permanently damaged by these vaccines. If these people were honest we wouldn't be having this conversation.At what point does your scale tip?
So much for keeping it..."in house" or under control.
Measles Outbreak Grows: Here's Where Cases Are Spreading In The U.S.
Texas remains the state with the highest number of cases, by far.
moralorel
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1. Yes, let us use some actual sense. I'm not saying that my nation needs to suffer due to my own personal freedom. However, I am saying that I don't trust my own country, or any country, to try to use the excuse of "common good" for their actions. For example, I do NOT agree with Winston Churchill allowing 3 million Indians starve to death "for the common good" during WW2. Likewise, my nation imprisoned and killed Japanese citizens "for the common good". At least most of us weren't affected by these actions, so I suppose it's ok? It is not! It is the same with forcing vaccines without exception. If a vaccine is as effective as the politicians and drug companies say it is, then a handful of people being unvaccinated shouldn't be a big deal. The president of the United States, Fauci, and the media all told us that if we got the vaccine, we would be immune to Covid. My experience with coronaviruses was enough for me to know this was a bold-faced lie. It was. They knew it was a lie. But many of you believed this to be true and fell for it.
Purposefully killing people is definitely a violation of anyone's freedom and rights. You thinking differently is the true fantasy. But for the "common good"...
2. Comparing your ache in your arm to blindness huh? You trust the state to make your medical choices for you, I do not. I don't trust them to make medical decisions for other people, even if those people are different from me. I know that vaccines are rarely dangerous. But if a vaccine is ineffective, is killing people, or even permanently harming them, why are we enforcing it anyway?
3. Glad we agree on my personal case. Politicians did not. Neither did the media. I mentioned my previous issue at work. We were going to be fired if we didn't get vaccinated. There was no protection from the state. My boss was advised not to get the vaccine, so he didn't. If it weren't for my coworkers banding together in protest, we would have been fired. The irony is that all of the VP's were vaccinated but were hospitalized with Covid. One almost died. We got Covid and were fine. Weird.
4. Take the "silly statement" up with Wil. I agree. Silly. But he's willing to do so.
5. Well that excuses everything! Thanks for clearing that up!
6. Ignorant statement. Often vaccinated people spread the virus. Unless you can prove for certain that the unvaccinated person spread it, no need for an apology from the unvaccinated. If the vaccinated people are dying, then the vaccine was ineffective anyway.
Don't you dare lump me with people who are right-wing activists and/or who get all of their information from Tik Tok, etc. You know better. If you blindly trust your government and its media, you aren't any better than them anyway.
7. Totally in agreement with your statements about the food industries and Big Pharma.
wil
UNeyeR1
If I read it correctly....8 billion doses administered....55 deaths after vaccination recorded.
I'll be getting my next jab in a couple months if recommended by my doc.
Death after the Administration of COVID-19 Vaccines Approved by EMA: Has a Causal Relationship Been Demonstrated? - PMC
More than eight billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered globally so far and 44.29% of people are fully vaccinated. Pre-authorization clinical trials were carried out and the safety of vaccines is still continuously monitored ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
You do realize thats a government website.. plausible deniability. Cant check VAERS sunce its currently down. There are countless videos of people reporting family members dying after receiving the jab not to mention all the injuries like myocarditis or POTS. Its kind of ironic to me that you are so trusting of the govt on this on one issue after knowing the atrocities committed to its people.If I read it correctly....8 billion doses administered....55 deaths after vaccination recorded.
I'll be getting my next jab in a couple months if recommended by my doc.
Death after the Administration of COVID-19 Vaccines Approved by EMA: Has a Causal Relationship Been Demonstrated? - PMC
More than eight billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered globally so far and 44.29% of people are fully vaccinated. Pre-authorization clinical trials were carried out and the safety of vaccines is still continuously monitored ...
OK. I'd say we have a process here:
1.0 States should be run for the common good.
1.1 States will abuse that power for their own ends.
1.2 Sometimes the State must sacrifice individual good for the common good of all.
So OK, you don't trust your leadership because of abuses, nevertheless, the general rule applies.
You then have to present evidence of that abuse. This was not sufficiently done, as far as I can tell, and the issue was clouded by a large degree of nonsense, such as 'thought-control' devices being injected in the vaccines... and furthermore that noisy anti-vaxxers were also regarded as fringe because of other conspiracies they engage in.
Thalidomide? Oxycontin? Tuskegee Syphilis study? You know there are more evidences of abuse or negligence. I was prescribed Paxil with my second pregnancy because i had postpartum depression with my first. "Something" toldme not to take it you can call it God or a mothers instinct... Years later a class action lawsuit to the pharma company for birth defects. Hep B vaccine on a day old newborn? You can research whats in the vaccines and the levels of heavy metal toxcity in our children IS harmful. I dont care what anyone says.
moralorel
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Key word here is "should". But if the entire process is being corrupted, continue on anyway? You and I differ on this.
The government and media joined together to lie and disregard facts as "conspiracy theories". The blame is on them. If they are dishonest, which they are, then this breeds conspiracy theories.
Everything from the origins of the virus, the funding that the lab in Wuhan received from us, the effectiveness of the vaccine, the effectiveness of natural immunity, the effectiveness of masks, etc. all lied about by the media and politicians. If they had just been honest you and I wouldn't even be talking about this right now.
moralorel
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"Common good"
moralorel
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1. I find it interesting what you claimed in another post about raising our children. You stated that you raised your kids to "think, read, learn and question authority." Here I am questioning authority and you are right there defending it. Everything you say is always in line with what a certain media and political party say. I don't know if I've ever seen you stray. My mother is the same way. I was raised to resist the machine. Now she has changed. She was completely anti-vaxx as well (I am not). The second Covid hit she switched her stance and now she gets all of her boosters. She can't give me a reason why. She also used to protest wars. Now she wears that Ukraine flag like it's a sports jersey.If I read it correctly....8 billion doses administered....55 deaths after vaccination recorded.
I'll be getting my next jab in a couple months if recommended by my doc.
Death after the Administration of COVID-19 Vaccines Approved by EMA: Has a Causal Relationship Been Demonstrated? - PMC
More than eight billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered globally so far and 44.29% of people are fully vaccinated. Pre-authorization clinical trials were carried out and the safety of vaccines is still continuously monitored ...
2. You didn't even read your article. 55 isn't actually the number. They "studied" 55 cases. The article is a little misleading at first, which is odd coming from an institution sponsored by our honest government. If you continue to read the article you will see this. It's one source and it is from 2022. It is 2025 now.
3. The numbers from different sources rarely match up. According to liberal news outlets, 2 people died from the vaccine. According to right-wing media, we're well over 9 billion deaths from the vaccine. So I assume we're somewhere in the middle (sarcasm heavily implied).
4. Peer-reviewed science papers have shown that we handled the vaccines poorly. The deaths from vaccine, whatever that magical number is, are definitely far higher than what has been reported. Why? We weren't even performing proper autopsies to begin with. If you have performed zero autopsies to confirm the cause of death, then you have zero proof that someone died from the vaccine. Therefore your honest politicians and media tell us that nobody died from the vaccine. Technically they aren't wrong. So just resort to gaslighting the masses and tell them that the vaccine is safe. All of the in depth autopsies (the zero that were originally performed) agree.
The Autopsy Data Are In: What They Reveal About COVID-19 Vaccines and Public Health Oversight - Science, Public Health Policy and the Law
Two newly published peer-reviewed studies in Science, Public Health Policy & the Law provide critical forensic evidence that strengthens the link between
publichealthpolicyjournal.com
wil
UNeyeR1
So....how many deaths are attributed to the vaccine?
8 billion vaccinations...what percentage?
8 billion vaccinations...what percentage?
Id say check VAERS.. but its down.
moralorel
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That's what I want to know. Since you trust the government, pharmaceutical companies, and the media I figured you could find a difinitive answer. Everything I find is vague and doesn't give an actual percentage or number. Since it is "safe and effective", these numbers should be easily accessible. As my article stated, autopsies weren't allowed to be performed for this matter for awhile. I'm sure our tru$tworthy government agencie$ had their good rea$on$.
1. I find it interesting what you claimed in another post about raising our children. You stated that you raised your kids to "think, read, learn and question authority." Here I am questioning authority and you are right there defending it. Everything you say is always in line with what a certain media and political party say. I don't know if I've ever seen you stray. My mother is the same way. I was raised to resist the machine. Now she has changed. She was completely anti-vaxx as well (I am not). The second Covid hit she switched her stance and now she gets all of her boosters. She can't give me a reason why. She also used to protest wars. Now she wears that Ukraine flag like it's a sports jersey.
2. You didn't even read your article. 55 isn't actually the number. They "studied" 55 cases. The article is a little misleading at first, which is odd coming from an institution sponsored by our honest government. If you continue to read the article you will see this. It's one source and it is from 2022. It is 2025 now.
3. The numbers from different sources rarely match up. According to liberal news outlets, 2 people died from the vaccine. According to right-wing media, we're well over 9 billion deaths from the vaccine. So I assume we're somewhere in the middle (sarcasm heavily implied).
4. Peer-reviewed science papers have shown that we handled the vaccines poorly. The deaths from vaccine, whatever that magical number is, are definitely far higher than what has been reported. Why? We weren't even performing proper autopsies to begin with. If you have performed zero autopsies to confirm the cause of death, then you have zero proof that someone died from the vaccine. Therefore your honest politicians and media tell us that nobody died from the vaccine. Technically they aren't wrong. So just resort to gaslighting the masses and tell them that the vaccine is safe. All of the in depth autopsies (the zero that were originally performed) agree.
The Autopsy Data Are In: What They Reveal About COVID-19 Vaccines and Public Health Oversight - Science, Public Health Policy and the Law
Two newly published peer-reviewed studies in Science, Public Health Policy & the Law provide critical forensic evidence that strengthens the link between
Come on now .. I feel sure that the amount of people saved from vaccines highly outweighs the
number of deaths DUE to allergies to it.
Nevertheless, I still believe that people should have the option of refusing it..
It's down to our conscience, and weighing up the pros and cons. and depends on individual
circumstances.
eg. not all people are 'fit' to give blood
..and I suppose you think that you could have done better..
..or perhaps you think the govt. should have done nothing?
wil
UNeyeR1
Yup! And I also said this anti allopathic medicine..oh I wanna be natural dude changed his tune some after waking up from a coma, 4 strokes and 2 days of open heart surgery.
Surprise! Humpty dumpty when put back together by incredible doctors and nurses trusted the results.
Same with covid....I live in a country where folks were too distrusting and unempathetic of their neighbors plight to mask or quarentine...
The results are there...the jab was/is effective...yes like all meds (or food) some have bad reqctions... I fault for the greater good and science....my bad.