Christian Nationalism

[Faithfulservant]

Without Judas (and crucifixion/risen stories) would we even have Christianity?

I'm not sure . Scholars have debated this very thing. I choose to believe that yes we would still have Christianity but remember that to me God being outside of time and knew the end before the beginning would have known of this betrayal. The downfall of Judas was his lack of repentance for what he did.. Peter denied Jesus 3 times but he repented. For each of those times Jesus asked him.. Peter do you love me and Peter responding yes to each question. Jesus essentially forgave him for each denial and told him that he had a job to do. What a beautiful example of His mercy.

We believe Judas fulfilled several prophesies and one of the being this:

Zechariah 11:12-13
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.

Zechariah prophesied that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and given to the potter. That 30 pieces of silver Judas accepted to betray Jesus was used to purchase the potters field to bury strangers in That silver was considered blood money.

Take whatever you want from that.

 

[wil]

God being outside of time and knew the end before the beginning would have known of this betrayal. The downfall of Judas was his lack of repentance for what he did.

....That 30 pieces of silver Judas accepted to betray Jesus was used to purchase the potters field to bury strangers in That silver was considered blood money.

Take whatever you want from that.

What I take from that is more confusion...then it seems Judas is a hero for fulfilling prophecies and G!ds will.

If G!d knew ....created...knew...and sent his son...knowing what judas would do and how he would do it...and wrote about it and if was fulfilled...

We need to thank Judas for his participation in the role G!d envisioned for him to have his own pefect son killed in a horrific way...(but then if I am catholic and they are all one...increased level of confusion)

Hence I am an agnostic leaning atheist who loves the teachings of Jesus and Buddha as well as many of the practices of other religions but just can't buy any of them hook, like and sinker (literally).

 

[Faithfulservant]

What I take from that is more confusion...then it seems Judas is a hero for fulfilling prophecies and G!ds will.

If you choose to see it that way. I see him as a lost soul.

If G!d knew ....created...knew...and sent his son...knowing what judas would do and how he would do it...and wrote about it and if was fulfilled...

He gave us all free will and the freedom to choose what to do with what He gave us . Still He knows everything

We need to thank Judas for his participation in the role G!d envisioned for him to have his own pefect son killed in a horrific way...(but then if I am catholic and they are all one...increased level of confusion)

Do we also thank the ones who crucified Jesus on the cross? I personally would not.. Just as I would not thank lucifer for his rebellion and taking a third of the angels with him. If you want to honor Judas then that is your choice.He is not being honored in heaven as the others are.

Hence I am an agnostic leaning atheist who loves the teachings of Jesus and Buddha as well as many of the practices of other religions but just can't buy any of them hook, like and sinker (literally).

Jesus taught of hell so I imagine you pick and choose which teachings you like? If that works for you.

 

[wil]

If you choose to see it that way. I see him as a lost soul.

So you see G!d as knowing he would send Jesus down thru Mary to be crucified to save our souls and Judas is an integral character in that but he had a choice, free will, and chose to do the bidding of G!d to...

Yeah, this is why I plod ahead...

 

[Faithfulservant]

So you see G!d as knowing he would send Jesus down thru Mary to be crucified to save our souls and Judas is an integral character in that but he had a choice, free will, and chose to do the bidding of G!d to...

Yeah, this is why I plod ahead..

Yeah you don't get it. That's ok.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I might be a Christian Nationalist since I have voted strictly on the issue of abortion since I was 18 years old.

I don't think that your attitude towards abortion is nationalist. It's not even confessional in Christianity.
According to Halacha (Jewish interpretation of the Word they received) life is only protected after birth (extrapolated form Ex 21:22).
According to Shariah, abortion is discouraged (makruh, meaning you should not do it, but it is not punished in this world) in general and forbidden (haram, meaning punishable) after "the foetus has a soul", where it is disputed when this is the case; 120 days (Hanafi fiqh) or 12 weeks (Maliki fiqh) or unknown (left to civil legislation, Shafii fiqh). The Maliki coincidences with the Swiss law.
Jesus preached the law of the Kingdom of God, what is really desirable. In this sense, I understand that strict Christians tend to follow the really desirable. But is there a specific passage in the N.T. that says that abortion must be punished from the beginning of pregnancy?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Abortion must be punished? Noone said the NT said this. But.. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother's womb. That says a lot to me.

Here's a link to a list of passages that plainly speak of God's creation and the sanctity of life. Life isn't just by chance.. it's the work of God Almighty.

What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?

Bible verses about God Knew Us Before We Were Born

www.openbible.info

I don't care who interprets what or whatever way they want to interpret. God spoke His Word over those in the womb and His Word is the only authority on which I base my beliefs on not some guys interpretation of it.

You show me in the bible where it says that the fetus gets a soul at 12 weeks gestation...then we can talk.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't care who interprets what or whatever way they want to interpret .. God spoke His Word..

..but that can't be right .. what you mean, is that you choose to interpret the Bible
the way "your lot" interprets it.
Because, clearly, there are at least 70 different Christian sects, who have their
own opinions.

 

[wil]

You show me in the bible where it says that the fetus gets a soul at 12 weeks gestation...then we can talk.

Adam got life when G!d breathed into him eh? Not when G!d made him...not until Adam took a breath.

A fetus is basically a parasite, one that can and does kill the host at times. Even after the child breaths air, the parasitic nature is not done. When it comes many animals once weaned many are on their own, birds leave the nest...while it don't take 18 years for all humans (some take longer), it is a significant length of time before the parasite can live without a host.

My mother raised 3 such parasites. My sisters are 3 years older and 3 years younger, and as my mother (93 now) tells it she had and abortion between each live birth. My mother was a registered nurse...so she uses the proper terms. She called it a natural abortion, that was the terminology of the day.


The earliest known use of the word "miscarriage" is in a letter written by Cardinal William Allen in 1579. The word is derived from the English words "mis-" and "carriage".
In the late 20th century, British doctors began using the term "miscarriage" instead of "abortion" to describe early pregnancy loss. Some say this change was an intuitive response to women's experiences, but others say it reflected social, legal, technological, and professional developments.
A miscarriage is the spontaneous loss of a fetus before the 20th week of pregnancy. It's also known as a spontaneous abortion. Pregnancy losses that occur after the 20th week are called stillbirths. Early pregnancy loss, which happens in the first trimester, is the most common type of miscarriage and occurs in about 10% of known pregnancies.

 

[Faithfulservant]

..but that can't be right .. what you mean, is that you choose to interpret the Bible
the way "your lot" interprets it.
Because, clearly, there are at least 70 different Christian sects, who have their
own opinions.

Like I said . Show me in the bible where it says the fetus gets a soul at 12 weeks. Or even how ex 21:12 can be taken to say abortion is permissable.

We are talking about me and what I believe and not 70 different sects of Christianity. I don't care what anyone else believes . I walk according to my convictions just as you walk according to yours

 

[Faithfulservant]

Adam got life when G!d breathed into him eh? Not when G!d made him...not until Adam took a breath.

I posted an extensive list of scripture.. feel free to read them. I'm not going to post them individually.

A fetus is basically a parasite, one that can and does kill the host at times. Even after the child breaths air, the parasitic nature is not done. When it comes many animals once weaned many are on their own, birds leave the nest...while it don't take 18 years for all humans (some take longer), it is a significant length of time before the parasite can live without a host.

My mother raised 3 such parasites. My sisters are 3 years older and 3 years younger, and as my mother (93 now) tells it she had and abortion between each live birth. My mother was a registered nurse...so she uses the proper terms. She called it a natural abortion, that was the terminology of the day.

That's sad. I call them babies. I'm very excited that tomorrow I'm going to my daughter's 20 week ultrasound to see my fourth grandchild.

This view is concerning as there are many handicapped humans that are unable to to survive on their own. I believe Hitler also held this view and wanted them euthanized.

The earliest known use of the word "miscarriage" is in a letter written by Cardinal William Allen in 1579. The word is derived from the English words "mis-" and "carriage".
In the late 20th century, British doctors began using the term "miscarriage" instead of "abortion" to describe early pregnancy loss. Some say this change was an intuitive response to women's experiences, but others say it reflected social, legal, technological, and professional developments.
A miscarriage is the spontaneous loss of a fetus before the 20th week of pregnancy. It's also known as a spontaneous abortion. Pregnancy losses that occur after the 20th week are called stillbirths. Early pregnancy loss, which happens in the first trimester, is the most common type of miscarriage and occurs in about 10% of known pregnancies.

My daughter suffered two miscarriages. One of them was twins. We all still grieve those miscarriages. We believe we will see them in heaven and derive comfort from that. For your information the second trimester begins at week 13 or 14 as your cut and paste was unclear when it would be called a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion.

It's so easy for some people to put unhuman terminology on human beings. I guess I understand having to do that in order to desensitize them from the fact that they are simply unborn human beings.

 

[moralorel]

Exodus 21:22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25. burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

For what it's worth to this conversation...

 

[iBrian]

..but that can't be right .. what you mean, is that you choose to interpret the Bible

I think it's a given in discussions that individuals are speaking for themselves.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Like I said . Show me in the bible where it says the fetus gets a soul at 12 weeks..

I'm not following your gist .. is there somewhere in your version of the Bible, where
it says the particular age that a soul enters the fetus/embryo?
According to wikipedia..

In human prenatal development, fetal development begins from the ninth week after fertilization (or eleventh week gestational age) and continues until the birth of a newborn. Prenatal development is a continuum, with no clear defining feature distinguishing an embryo from a fetus. However, a fetus is characterized by the presence of all the major body organs, though they will not yet be fully developed and functional and some not yet situated in their final anatomical location.

We are talking about me and what I believe..

Of course..

and not 70 different sects of Christianity..

..but this is in the Christian forum .. so I assume that you are agreeing with at least one of those sects.

I don't care what anyone else believes..

Well, I believe in listening what others have to say, and council.
My beliefs were formed by many considerations, and I do not have a closed mind.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think it's a given in discussions that individuals are speaking for themselves.

Right
..but I do not think it plausible to suggest that a particular view is "God's word", while
an alternative view of another Christian is not.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm not following your gist .. is there somewhere in your version of the Bible, where
it says the particular age that a soul enters the fetus/embryo?
According to wikipedia..

In human prenatal development, fetal development begins from the ninth week after fertilization (or eleventh week gestational age) and continues until the birth of a newborn. Prenatal development is a continuum, with no clear defining feature distinguishing an embryo from a fetus. However, a fetus is characterized by the presence of all the major body organs, though they will not yet be fully developed and functional and some not yet situated in their final anatomical location.

First off let's determine that the soul makes a person. Correct?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

" For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb."

These say to me that God knows me. He is ultimately in control as He is my creator. He is also in control of when I die. That's His choice and to do anything other than allow death naturally is considered murder. Nobody can convince me otherwise.

I also do not trust Wikipedia as a source of information.

but this is in the Christian forum .. so I assume that you are agreeing with at least one of those sects.

Sure? I do not speak for anyone other than myself, though. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? Anyone can claim to be Christian just like anyone can claim to be Muslim. Do you accept that every person claiming Islam is a true believer?

I'm wondering what box you are trying to put me into.

Well, I believe in listening what others have to say, and council.My beliefs were formed by many considerations, and I do not have a closed mind.

I'm happy for you that you don't have a closed mind. You seem proud of that. I also will not apologize for being steadfast in my beliefs. I'm not seeking popularity. I choose not to listen to the world view to form my opinions because my scriptures tell me not to.

"You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

 

[muhammad_isa]

First off let's determine that the soul makes a person. Correct?

I don't know .. I suppose it depends on one's definition of soul.
I'm using it in the context of spirit, and not 'meat'.

These say to me that God knows me. He is ultimately in control as He is my creator. He is also in control of when I die. That's His choice and to do anything other than allow death naturally is considered murder. Nobody can convince me otherwise.

Right .. that is the official Catholic position .. but..

In October 2012, Savita Halappanavar died at University Hospital Galway in Ireland, after suffering a miscarriage which led to sepsis (blood poisoning), multiple organ failure, and her death. She was denied abortion under Irish law because the fetus had a heartbeat and nothing could therefore be done. A midwife explained to her, in a remark for which she later apologized: "This is a Catholic country". Widespread protests were subsequently held in Ireland and India, and there was a call to re-examine the Irish abortion laws. On 25 May 2018, the Irish electorate voted by a majority of 66.4% to repeal the 8th Amendment which banned abortion in almost all circumstances, thus allowing the government to legislate for abortion. An exit poll conducted by RTE suggested that almost 70% of those who voted yes considered themselves to be Catholic. New law created by the Irish Parliament allowed for abortion in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy (with an exception to the time limit if the woman's life is at risk). Abortion services commenced on 1 January 2019.
- Wikipedia -

I also do not trust Wikipedia as a source of information.

It's a neutral source of information .. religious websites, for example, are not.

Anyone can claim to be Christian just like anyone can claim to be Muslim..

..and G-d knows who is sincere in their faith, and who is not.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

We won't go there .. because you have already told me that there is nothing stopping rich businessmen
to be sincere in their faith.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I don't know .. I suppose it depends on one's definition of soul.
I'm using it in the context of spirit, and not 'meat'.


Right .. that is the official Catholic position .. but..

In October 2012, Savita Halappanavar died at University Hospital Galway in Ireland, after suffering a miscarriage which led to sepsis (blood poisoning), multiple organ failure, and her death. She was denied abortion under Irish law because the fetus had a heartbeat and nothing could therefore be done. A midwife explained to her, in a remark for which she later apologized: "This is a Catholic country". Widespread protests were subsequently held in Ireland and India, and there was a call to re-examine the Irish abortion laws. On 25 May 2018, the Irish electorate voted by a majority of 66.4% to repeal the 8th Amendment which banned abortion in almost all circumstances, thus allowing the government to legislate for abortion. An exit poll conducted by RTE suggested that almost 70% of those who voted yes considered themselves to be Catholic. New law created by the Irish Parliament allowed for abortion in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy (with an exception to the time limit if the woman's life is at risk). Abortion services commenced on 1 January 2019.
- Wikipedia -

That story is tragic and can certainly be traced back since women started having babies. To flip the script on this.. many abortions are botched causing death and infertility not to mention the emotional trauma.

It's a neutral source of information .. religious websites, for example, are not.

True.

..and G-d knows who is sincere in their faith, and who is not.

True

We won't go there .. because you have already told me that there is nothing stopping rich businessmen
to be sincere in their faith.

Ooh. But you just said that God knows who is sincere in their faith and who is not.

 

[Faithfulservant]

@muhammad_isa I have a question for you since you brought the issue up. Do you have the same attitude towards rich Muslim businessmen as you do Christian ones? Are they somehow exempt from this standard you have against wealth? You were so quick to criticize the wealth in the US but there is a huge disparity in wealth in Muslim countries maybe moreso..

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have a question for you since you brought the issue up. Do you have the same attitude towards rich Muslim businessmen as you do Christian ones?

It's across the board .. and in the time of Jesus, there was no such thing as Christian or Muslim,
in any case.

As you know, I'm from a Christian background and live in a 'Christian nation', although the UK
is now a multicultural society.

Both Islam and Christianity teach that extreme wealth is something that is not compatible
with faith.
..but also teach that it is incumbent on us to earn our living .. but does not demonize the poor.