Christian Nationalism

muhammad_isa said:
It's across the board .. and in the time of Jesus, there was no such thing as Christian or Muslim,
in any case.

As you know, I'm from a Christian background and live in a 'Christian nation', although the UK
is now a multicultural society.

Both Islam and Christianity teach that extreme wealth is something that is not compatible
with faith.
..but also teach that it is incumbent on us to earn our living .. but does not demonize the poor.
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Would you also agree that it is not our responsibility to judge a man in regards to his wealth if we also trust that God knows and judges a man's heart?
 
Not wanting to wade in on either side here.

My own view is that God gave us a life, which we are responsible for and should treat responsibly.

Here's a point for consideration:
John 15:13 – "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

That may be so, but to wilfully give up one's life – is that not suicide?

If God is the sole arbiter of life, then it's not 'my life' to lay down, no matter how noble the reason – and yet we have examples of just such nobility of sacrifice, and we don't condemn nor believe God condemns.

If I develop the most painful cancer, is that not God's Will. What right have I to seek medical intervention?

My uncle, like many, many others, died of an incurable debilitating illness. In the end treatment was 'palliative care', meaning make the patient as comfortable as possible. In my uncle's case, as it is, I'm pretty sure, in the majority of cases, what actually tips the balance is not the illness but the treatment, the painkillers administered to manage the suffering. The final morphine dose.

Take that palliative care away, and the suffering can be much, much worse, and go on much, much longer.

+++

One can go on splitting hairs ... but it seems to me there's a moral dimension.

+++

I'm not saying abortion is right. I don't believe an embryo is 'just' a bunch of cells – it is destined to be a human being, and should be accorded rights, in the same way that someone, no matter their degree of impairment or disability, is still, nevertheless, a human being – an ill-formed human being, just an embryo is an an un-formed human being.

Nor, however, am I saying it's always wrong.

The mother-baby thing: Continue with this pregnancy and both mother and baby will die. Terminate the pregnancy and the mother will survive. That's a tough decision for the mother.

Heart transplant? What right have we to swap out the heart?

I'm saying we live in a world defined by contingency, a fallen world. And maybe, just maybe, God allows us a degree more self-determination than we sometimes allow.

I hope so, if not, we're just puppets, and then love takes on a much darker aspect ...
 
Faithfulservant said:
Abortion must be punished? Noone said the NT said this. But.. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother's womb. That says a lot to me.

Here's a link to a list of passages that plainly speak of God's creation and the sanctity of life. Life isn't just by chance.. it's the work of God Almighty.

What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?

Bible verses about God Knew Us Before We Were Born
www.openbible.info www.openbible.info

I don't care who interprets what or whatever way they want to interpret. God spoke His Word over those in the womb and His Word is the only authority on which I base my beliefs on not some guys interpretation of it.

You show me in the bible where it says that the fetus gets a soul at 12 weeks gestation...then we can talk.
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I find myself in the role of defending abortions. I want to point out that I don't.
The base of the 120 days is in Hadith of Muhammad (p.b.u.h), who explained,
The seed of one of you remains in the womb of the mother for forty days in the form of a Nutfa. Then it remains like a clot for another forty days, and then for a same number of days like a lump of flesh.
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There is a (weak) variant saying 4 weeks instead of 40 days.
In Islam, the 120 days or 12 week period is only about punishment.
The attitude that the foetus is part of the woman is not supposed by any prophet.
On the political level, it's also essentially about that, because legislation decides over penalty law nothing else.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
I find myself in the role of defending abortions. I want to point out that I don't.
The base of the 120 days is in Hadith of Muhammad (p.b.u.h), who explained,

There is a (weak) variant saying 4 weeks instead of 40 days.
In Islam, the 120 days or 12 week period is only about punishment.
The attitude that the foetus is part of the woman is not supposed by any prophet.
On the political level, it's also essentially about that, because legislation decides over penalty law nothing else.
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I just saw the ultrasound of my grandchild at 19 weeks weighing 10 ounces. He had all limbs a beating heart a spine and fingers and toes and a brain. He was facing the camera so I could see the features of his face.

Abortions at this point in gestation are common. To consider how they abort babies at this stage is horrific to me.

My daughter felt him move for the first time yesterday. All I feel is wonder at this new life and the complexities of God's creation.

Thank you for explaining your view and I think we get so caught up in the discussion that we forget to consider how each other feels.

Abortion is a personal thing to me. I've carried two children in my womb. I was 18 years old and still in high school when I got pregnant with my daughter. I have a whole story of how I went to planned parenthood for a free pregnancy test and the enormous pressure to get an abortion they put on me. They threw statistics at me and told me it was just a clump of cells. They fed my fear of what my future would look like. That was the first time that my child was in true mortal danger because had I not been raised in a Christian house I KNOW I would have done it.

Unless you have been in that situation you wouldn't know.

Answering @RabbiO as to voting on one issue. That's is why I vote on this issue. I fully supported defunding planned parenthood as the knowledge that my taxes paid for their "free pregnancy tests" and low cost abortions absolutely sickened me.
 
moralorel said:
Exodus 21:22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25. burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

For what it's worth to this conversation...
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If the fetus does not survive in this encounter, the order is to abort another one to make up for it?

Would that apply to Ezikial 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children...

Or does the exodus commandment only apply for fighting not ordered by G!d?
 
I am the father of twins...only because my wife chose to carry them to term. It was her body and not my decision. One a biology teacher. The other works to assist victims of domestic violence. Both beneficiaries of choice and both pro choice.

I have more than one friend who committed suicide, and more.than one friend who chose to end their life under a doctor's care.rather than suffer the end their illness would provide. Odds are high when the time comes I will probably take the "easy" way out. Although I do not feel the choice of ending ones life or having an abortion is ever the "easy" way.
 
wil said:
If the fetus does not survive in this encounter, the order is to abort another one to make up for it?

Would that apply to Ezikial 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children...

Or does the exodus commandment only apply for fighting not ordered by G!d?
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I guess you don't want to be an enemy of God then. Remember that these people God commanded to be killed were worshiping demonic idols and committing atrocious acts which included sacrificing children. You can find such commands in Deuteronomy Leviticus and Joshua as well. God hated the sacrifice of children even then.
 
wil said:
I do not feel the choice of ending ones life or having an abortion is ever the "easy" way.
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Over 60 million babies were aborted since Roe v Wade. That's an entire population of what mostly seems to be an " easy" way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. I imagine in most scenarios they expected it to be easy solution and didn't expect the trauma death and infertility that decision cost them.
 
wil said:
If the fetus does not survive in this encounter, the order is to abort another one to make up for it?

Would that apply to Ezikial 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children...

Or does the exodus commandment only apply for fighting not ordered by G!d?
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No. The offender dies.

The Ezekiel 6 is a prophecy of what Israel's enemies will do to them. Nothing to do with the law mentioned above. Not even close.
 
I'm gonna back out of the abortion debate...

I've got plenty of opinions...and do not wish to get into it here and upset others...but I will not dictate what a woman does with her body...that includes those present.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Sure? I do not speak for anyone other than myself, though. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? Anyone can claim to be Christian just like anyone can claim to be Muslim. Do you accept that every person claiming Islam is a true believer?

I'm wondering what box you are trying to put me into.
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Me reading this over now a couple of months later, my take on it was that denominational identifications --which is what i think he was referring to-- @muhammad_isa can you clarify if I am wrong -- that denominational identifications at least used to matter tremendously in terms of who was regarded as "truly Christian" I think there may still be an official teaching in Catholicism and maybe in Orthodoxy that those outside the formal Church are not saved and maybe not Christian -- some Protestants who claim the Catholics or the Orthodox are not Christian, and of course all of those who would insist JWs or SDAs or Christadelphians or a variety of other heterodox groups are "not really Christian"

So the distinction I thought he was making was of believers and perceived legitimacy, and what helps someone determine who counts as really Christian or maybe what standard helps someone be confident in their beliefs if their interpretation of scripture were to end of differing in some substantive way from somebody else's.
 
Faithfulservant said:
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
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I was always puzzled by what this one might actually mean, as it seems to be in tension with the idea that God created the world and saw that it was good. There must be more nuance to one or both of those statements. How can one be a good Berean and be sure?
 
wil said:
Although I do not feel the choice of ending ones life or having an abortion is ever the "easy" way.
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Definitely not😢
(Myself having far closer connection with occurrences suicide than with abortion, though I know my grandmother had several miscarriages and I am amazed she survived, I do not know whether emergency termination was an option for her or on the table at all--but if I knew someone today in her situation I would be horrified that termination was utterly not an option despite the threat to her life 😢 )
 
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