be gone the standing empty cross

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I get that JW deny the cross and they want to dispute that Jesus wasn't resurrected bodily and that Jesus isn't God Almighty in spite of all the scriptures and witnesses saying otherwise. The fact that the big issue is the cross just makes me shake my head.

I have a T-shirt that says 1 cross + 3 nails = 4given. I love that T-shirt!
 
Faithfulservant said:
I get that JW deny the cross and they want to dispute that Jesus wasn't resurrected bodily and that Jesus isn't God Almighty in spite of all the scriptures and witnesses saying otherwise. The fact that the big issue is the cross just makes me shake my head.

I have a T-shirt that says 1 cross + 3 nails = 4given. I love that T-shirt!
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the JW's learned from many ,many years ago that the possibility's of Jesus being hung up on a cross was ridicules and have been rendered mute.

he was hung up .not on a cross but on a pole .no cross bar for his arms to be starched out on to.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I get that JW deny the cross and they want to dispute that Jesus wasn't resurrected bodily and that Jesus isn't God Almighty in spite of all the scriptures and witnesses saying otherwise. The fact that the big issue is the cross just makes me shake my head.

I have a T-shirt that says 1 cross + 3 nails = 4given. I love that T-shirt!
Click to expand...
not surprised .
its far more likely four nails were used . nails have been recovered stuck in bones . nails were not long enough to go through both feet and into the wood. 4 nails would of been used
 
I went through all these scriptures and mentally replaced the word " Cross" with " torture stake" yeah I have to say that it's not working for me.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
— Hebrews 12:2
Jesus said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
— Luke 9:23-24
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
— Philippians 2:5-8
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace with his blood, shed on the cross.
— Colossians 1:19-20
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, [Jesus] made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
— Colossians 2:15
"[Jesus] was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
— Acts 2:23
30
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
— Galatians 6:14
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
— Luke 9:23
And anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
— Matthew 10:38-39
...but [Jesus] made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
— Philippians 2:7-
 
Faithfulservant said:
I went through all these scriptures and mentally replaced the word " Cross" with " torture stake" yeah I have to say that it's not working for me.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
— Hebrews 12:2
Jesus said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
— Luke 9:23-24
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
— Philippians 2:5-8
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace with his blood, shed on the cross.
— Colossians 1:19-20
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, [Jesus] made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
— Colossians 2:15
"[Jesus] was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
— Acts 2:23
30
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
— Galatians 6:14
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
— Luke 9:23
And anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
— Matthew 10:38-39
...but [Jesus] made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
— Philippians 2:7-
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religion has duped you into believing a mistake made hundreds of years after the fact . take the cross and stand it with the cross bar near the bottom . is it a now a cross ? or is it a pole with a handle needed and used to stand and remove ?? after it was taken down it would not be stood again until there was a need to execute another person. to carry it , it would look as your fabled cross . not hard to understand how religion then adulterated the use of it .
 
locust said:
religion has duped you into believing a mistake made hundreds of years after the fact . take the cross and stand it with the cross bar near the bottom . is it a now a cross ? or is it a pole with a handle needed and used to stand and remove ??
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Got any evidence of such a cross?
 
locust said:
the JW's learned from many ,many years ago that the possibility's of Jesus being hung up on a cross was ridicules and have been rendered mute.
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LOL, not really.

The JW's insisted that the Greek term stauros has only one meaning, whereas scholarship generally say that the meaning is contextual, and could be used to imply a number of things.

So stauros does mean 'stake', or an upright pole, eg a fencepost ... but it can mean other things.

To insist it can only be understood one way is dismissed by scholars, and thus the JW dogma is equally dismissed.
 
locust said:
religion has duped you into believing a mistake made hundreds of years after the fact . take the cross and stand it with the cross bar near the bottom . is it a now a cross ? or is it a pole with a handle needed and used to stand and remove ?? after it was taken down it would not be stood again until there was a need to execute another person. to carry it , it would look as your fabled cross . not hard to understand how religion then adulterated the use of it .
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And a group of old men have convinced you to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ who was the Word in the beginning that spoke the world into existence. The world that was made by Him and for Him. These old men have convinced you that Jesus Christ wasn't bodily resurrected even though there were witnesses to Him in the flesh who put their fingers in the holes of His hands and declared Him God.

My friend you are deceived by a man made religion. . Put whatever version of the NWT you've been reading down and pick up a KJV or even the ESV I've seen you quote. Stop listening to the watchtower and pray to God for truth and revelation. Trust the Lord and not men to reveal that truth to you.

Matthew 7:7-8
Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.Knock and the door will be opened to you seek and you shall find

IMO
 
locust said:
religion has duped you into believing a mistake made hundreds of years after the fact .
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No, I'm afraid you've paddled your canoe up a dead-end.

Their (JWs) second president, Joseph Rutherford, taught, “The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiate the hopes of men.” (Joseph Rutherford. The Harp of God (Brooklyn, NY: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1921, p141.)

The translation of stauros as 'torture stake' in the New World Translation of the Bible is just one example of a self-serving rendition of the Koine (not classical as supposed) Greek. This and the practice of adding words not there to change the meaning of the text are a matter of note.

Stake or post is not the only meaning of the word stauros.

Concerning crucifixions:
Seneca the Younger described crucifixions in a variety of ways:
"I see before me crosses not all alike, but differently made by different peoples: some hang a man head downwards, some force a stick upwards through his groin, some stretch out his arms on a forked gibbet (emphasis added). (Seneca the Younger, “To Marcia on Consolation”, in Moral Essays, 6.20)

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Carrying a patibulum: A Reassessment of Non-Christian Latin Sources
For brevity's sake:
That Jesus carried the horizontal bar of the cross, also named patibulum, is often assumed, and argued by John Granger Cook. Gunnar Samuelsson disagrees, however, and argued that we grope in the dark about the exact nature of the σταυρός that Jesus carried. Both major crucifixion scholars refer in their argumentation to Latin sources in which a patibulum is carried. But these sources have not been thoroughly assessed on their own. In this article the eight Latin sources mentioned in support of the ancient practice are analysed. It is argued that only four of these sources should be counted as referring to ‘traditional’ cross-bearing practices.

The point here being that of the eight articles cited, four are disputable, but the other four infer a crossbeam carried to the site of execution. Whether the victim was then fixed to an upright on the ground, the whole edifice then hoisted, or that the crossbeam was hoisted with the victim attached to a pre-standing upright, is not known ... but the point remains that execution on a traditional cross was a common practice in the ancient world, and all the evidence of scripture points to that, rather than impalement or otherwise to a stake.

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From "Crucifixion Practices: How to Attach a patibulum to a stipes", Novum Testamentum, Ruben van Wingerden, Brill, 06 Jun 2022:
The study of ancient crucifixion has received a significant impulse during the past twenty years.However, scholars often venture into the unknown regarding the how of crucifixion practices... but ancient literary evidence suggests that those condemned to crucifixion sometimes indeed carried their own cross-beam, but not the entire device.

Crucifixion expert John Granger Cook ... notes that in ancient texts about setting up a cross “[f]orms of agere in crucem (lead to the cross) or tollere in crucem (lift up onto a cross) are common.” Yet, in these texts there is no mention of a patibulum. Cook only says that “those who had not already been attached to a patibulum in some fashion were nailed or otherwise attached to standing crosses.” Simon Légasse notes that “[t]he archaeological details are apparently mute about the technique used for hoisting the patibulum with the body to the stipes and fixing it there.”

It's an interesting read.
 
Lucian (c125-180AD), The Consonants at Law 12.1-14:
That is the way he injures mankind as far as their speech is concerned, but look at the material injury he has done them! Men weep and bewail their lot and curse Cadmus over and over for putting Tau into the alphabet, for they say that their tyrants, following his figure and imitating his build, have fashioned timbers in the same shape and stake [ἀνασκολοπίζειν] men upon them, and that it is from him that the sorry device gets its name. For all this do you not think that Tau deserves to die many times over? As for me, I hold that in all justice we can punish Tau only by making a T of him.

Artemidorus Daldianus (2nd century), Oneirocritica 1.76, lines 35b-36a:
Since he is a criminal, he will be crucified in his height and in the extension of his hands.
κακούργος δὲ ὦν σταυρωθήσεται διὰ τὸ ὕψος καὶ τὴν τῶν χειρῶν ἔκτασιν.

Pseudo-Manetho, Apotelesmatica 4.198
.... Punished with limbs outstretched, they see the stake as their fate; they are fastened (and) nailed to it in the most bitter torment, evil food for birds of prey and grim pickings for dogs. ....

+++

None are Christian writers
 
Thomas said:
No, I'm afraid you've paddled your canoe up a dead-end.

Their (JWs) second president, Joseph Rutherford, taught, “The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiate the hopes of men.” (Joseph Rutherford. The Harp of God (Brooklyn, NY: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1921, p141.)
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if i may quote

Faithfulservant '' 1936 was when the JW rejected the cross.​

you how ever offered something from 1921 . yes in time things were corrected . wish i could say the same thing about the churches
 
i would like to point out , i never said no one has never been crucified . i will say Jesus did not die on a cross . thats the thing you dont like

​

 
Thomas said:
Got any evidence of such a cross?
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i have ,, one other person and me have lifted 20' pole up out of a 42'' deep hole . i was there we did it . I'm not just talking about what could be done .
 
locust said:
i would like to point out , i never said no one has never been crucified . i will say Jesus did not die on a cross . thats the thing you dont like

​

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Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
noun: crucifixion; plural noun: crucifixions
the execution of a person by nailing or binding them to a cross.
the killing of Jesus Christ by crucifixion.
singular proper noun: Crucifixion; noun: the Crucifixion

Crucifixion Definition
The English word crucifixion (pronounced krü-se-fik-shen) comes from the Latin crucifixio, or crucifixus, meaning "fix to a cross."

Interesting that He also told Peter how he would die.. and the stretching out of his hands.

John 21:18-19
18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

If you never watched The Passion of the Christ. You should. Mel Gibson stayed true to the culture and history and how a cross would have been lifted. Here is a clip for you on how the cross was raised



Please note 1cross + 3nails = 4given
 
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Faithfulservant said:
If you never watched The Passion of the Christ. You should. Mel Gibson stayed true to the culture and history and how a cross would have been lifted. Here is a clip for you on how the cross was raised
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Artistic license ? wow was it ever . reminded me of the spaghetti wester movies shots so close ya cant see whats happening
 
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