Unification of all religions: The four heavenly items Chapter one (The basics)

[TheLightWithin]

What is of interest to me is those that were given a great spiritual station, were lighted by faith, burnt like a bright light and then went, all is a short existence.

This story may interest you.

Thomas Breakwell

Definitely an intriguing story. Thanks!

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What is killed in this metephor is the person feeding off thier spiritual potential, as they have not become alive in the spirit. In the material world both the host and parasitic plant die.

The only difference between a theist and an atheist is one of belief. Belief or non-belief exists only in the mind.
So a living, breathing person functions in exactly the same way, what ever thoughts they may have. You use the phrase 'alive in the spirit' to imply non-believers are missing something.
Everyone has potential from just being alive. What you call spiritual potential, is not anything different except in your mind.

So in the metephor the host is our spiritual potential that is being fed off, but without connection to the source of that potential, that potential dies and so does the one feeding off it. (Let the dead bury the dead).

Without connection the source of our lives, we are dead.
Do you really think you have a better life-connection that a non-believer?
(Let the dead bury the dead). So are you saying that non-believers should be regarded as dead?.

God is just, compassionate, all merciful and forgiving. Thus we are all judged as such, nature, nurture and our given chances are all written on Tablets of Chrysolite..

Justice, compassion, mercy and forgiveness are found with ourselves. I have been a meditator for over 50 years and have found this to be true. For over 20 of those years I was a strong theist. Becoming a non-theist hasn't change how I experience life.
I do not believe there is any judge, other than ourselves.

I am aware of information that I see comes from God, so this information also feeds understanding into the given metephor and does address your observation about the source of virtues. (They are found within ourselves, yet we need to be born again to enable the full potential)

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." Baha'u'llah Kitab-i-Aqdas (Book of Laws)

I put an explanation of that verse under a spoiler.

Spoiler: Explanation of verse

"Question: It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas: '…whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed'. What is the meaning of this verse?

"Answer: The meaning of this blessed verse is that the foundation of success and salvation is the recognition of God, and that good deeds, which are the fruit of faith, derive from this recognition.

"When this recognition is not attained, man remains veiled from God and, as he is veiled, his good works fail to achieve their full and desired effect. This verse does not mean that those who are veiled from God are all equal, whether they be doers of good or workers of iniquity. It means only that the foundation is the recognition of God and that good deeds derive from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that among those who are veiled from God there is a difference between the doer of good and the sinner and malefactor. For the veiled soul who is endowed with good character and conduct merits the forgiveness of God, while the veiled sinner possessed of bad character and conduct will be deprived of the bounties and bestowals of God. Herein lies the difference.

"This blessed verse means, therefore, that good deeds alone, without the recognition of God, cannot lead to eternal redemption, to everlasting success and salvation, and to admittance into the Kingdom of God."

- 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Chapter 65

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Can you say more about this? I looked it up, I get it is a Baha'i teaching? Is it like "the book of life" or "the Akashic record" or something else?

From my understanding it would be like the book of life. To me it is that not thought we have or deed we do is veiled from God, it is all known and is all part of his plan.

Abdul'baha gives many talks where he tells us to replace every evil thought immediately with good and pure thoughts.

This gives a whole new level of morality and virtue we must consider, that everything we watch, that is influencing our thoughts needs to be considered in the light of virtues and morals.

This is a great challenge, what music and what TV can one now listen to and watch, most that comes out today is violent, lacking morals, crass virtues and morals and foul language, all that feeding the ill health of the mind of humanity. (Finding good moral, virtuous and loving entertainment can be done)

Can you see, in that light, how far we have fallen into materialism, how far we have turned away from what is of God, towards what is from our own selves?

Regards Tony

 

[Craz]

I am aware of information that I see comes from God, so this information also feeds understanding into the given metephor and does address your observation about the source of virtues. (They are found within ourselves, yet we need to be born again to enable the full potential)

I am aware of information that I see comes from God, so this information also feeds understanding into the given metephor and does address your observation about the source of virtues. (They are found within ourselves, yet we need to be born again to enable the full potential)

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." Baha'u'llah Kitab-i-Aqdas (Book of Laws)

I put an explanation of that verse under a spoiler.

Spoiler: Explanation of verse

"Question: It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas: '…whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed'. What is the meaning of this verse?

"Answer: The meaning of this blessed verse is that the foundation of success and salvation is the recognition of God, and that good deeds, which are the fruit of faith, derive from this recognition.

"When this recognition is not attained, man remains veiled from God and, as he is veiled, his good works fail to achieve their full and desired effect. This verse does not mean that those who are veiled from God are all equal, whether they be doers of good or workers of iniquity. It means only that the foundation is the recognition of God and that good deeds derive from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that among those who are veiled from God there is a difference between the doer of good and the sinner and malefactor. For the veiled soul who is endowed with good character and conduct merits the forgiveness of God, while the veiled sinner possessed of bad character and conduct will be deprived of the bounties and bestowals of God. Herein lies the difference.

"This blessed verse means, therefore, that good deeds alone, without the recognition of God, cannot lead to eternal redemption, to everlasting success and salvation, and to admittance into the Kingdom of God."

- 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Chapter 65

Regards Tony

Quoting from scriptures won't work on me as they hold no authority for me.
All my realisations have come from within and I go through many changes and could say I am born again every day. No god or guru.

Peace & good wishes to you.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Quoting from scriptures won't work on me as they hold no authority for me.
All my realisations have come from within and I go through many changes and could say I am born again every day. No god or guru.

Peace & good wishes to you.

Yes you to yours, me to mine and peace & good wishes to you.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

This is a great challenge, what music and what TV can one now listen to and watch, most that comes out today is violent, lacking morals, crass virtues and morals and foul language, all that feeding the ill health of the mind of humanity. (Finding good moral, virtuous and loving entertainment can be done)

Can you see, in that light, how far we have fallen into materialism, how far we have turned away from what is of God, towards what is from our own selves?

No.

I am familiar with questions about entertainment and morality and taste etc. I don't understand at all what that has to do with materialism. In this context, I'm assuming by materialism you mean the philosophical position that there is only matter and nothing transcendent. I don't see what that has to do with how crass or coarse entertainment is.

I don't see what they questions about entertainment and morality and taste have to do with religion either.
Let me explain:

When I was a kid growing up, my mom was barely religious at all (in fact she disapproved firmly of and eschewed organized religion) She also disapproved of and eschewed coarse, crass entertainment and sheltered us from it entirely when we were little and a great amount even when we were older. Now, the heavily religious Christian families around us... their kids ADORED the most violent and crass entertainment you can imagine. And got away with watching such things all the time. Religious(?) parents bought this stuff for them. (I'm of the generation where VCRs and hand held video games were brand new and suddenly ubiquitous) Predictably, going over to anyone's house, I was often shocked by what they shared. Only one or two families expressed any particular negative sentiment around crass media, and they were generally viewed as fanatics. WE were made fun of BOTH for being puritanical/naive, AND for being non religious. Those pieces didn't fit... IF you believe religion is supposed to play any part of sheltering kids from such things.

I ended up thinking that the religious objection to coarseness that you might see on the news, or in old books, was actually pure make believe and stereotyping and had nothing to do with real life.

Later in college, I learned that some people who have what probably counts as a "material" world view, in the sense of not believing in spirits, can still be captivated by a transcendence of a different sort, artistic or intellectual.

The reason I tell the anecdote is to flesh out how my real life experience and learning stacks up against the more abstract ideas.

And to illustrate why I said what I did in the first paragraph.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Now, the heavily religious Christian families around us... their kids ADORED the most violent and crass entertainment you can imagine..

I don't see what that has to do with religious truths.
Perhaps you are calling people out for their hypocrisy, rather than their beliefs.

Later in college, I learned that some people who have what probably counts as a "material" world view, in the sense of not believing in spirits, can still be captivated by a transcendence of a different sort, artistic or intellectual.

You do not need to be an Orthodox Christian to appreciate spirituality.
Some souls grow (in awareness) and some don't.

You seem to be denying Tony's observations about how western values have seriously slipped during
the last few decades. Maybe we are a lot older than you.

 

[RabbiO]

This is a great challenge, what music and what TV can one now listen to and watch, most that comes out today is violent, lacking morals, crass virtues and morals and foul language, all that feeding the ill health of the mind of humanity.

Either what is available in your part of the world is different than what is available here in the US or we just differ, in general, in our assessment. Should we ever meet I will simply remember not to suggest a movie night.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Either what is available in your part of the world is different than what is available here in the US or we just differ, in general, in our assessment. Should we ever meet I will simply remember not to suggest a movie night.

I would offer a challenge to name a couple of the more popular movies, or TV shows from the US, that you see arise to the level of morality and virtue, that we must consider, as given by G-d.

That will not contain foul language, reference to sex outside marriage, drug use (Alcohol is a drug), do not promote the telling of lies, the breaking of laws, have a theme of family love at the cost of upholding the most important laws of the land and many other aspects of degrades moral and virtues that G-d has advised us against. All in the aim of entertainment and ratings.

Wer can find moral and virtuous shows, that do contain the former, to highlight the later.

Regards Tony

 

[EricPH]

God, the One who is in control of the destiny of everything in this universe.

The same God hears all our prayers, no matter where we might worship.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

 

[TheLightWithin]

You seem to be denying Tony's observations about how western values have seriously slipped during
the last few decades. Maybe we are a lot older than you.

You may be older than me but not by a lot, I don't think.

(I'm Generation X, on the older end of it, my mom was an early boomer)

What I'm saying is that I am not convinced materialism is the issue.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I don't see what that has to do with religious truths.
Perhaps you are calling people out for their hypocrisy, rather than their beliefs.

Of course the highlighted component is their hypocrisy.
Which makes any case they hoped to make about religious truths unconvincing.

What it actually does though, that along with everything else I experienced in my years there, it made it clear to me that religiousness did not guarantee righteousness, refinement, or lawfulness. Irreligiousness did not seem to have any direct relationship to coarse and trashy stuff.

I'm more or less -- not so much refuting @Tony Bristow-Stagg exactly, just saying I don't feel his assertion is proven where many people may take it for a given.

I never saw the association between being religious and being good and moral, despite the stereotypes, nor do I see any evidence that being irreligious is correlated with coarseness or immorality.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I never saw the association between being religious and being good and moral, despite the stereotypes, nor do I see any evidence that being irreligious is correlated with coarseness or immorality.

That implies that the behaviour of a pious person is no different than that of a disbeliever.

I don't think that that is true, generally speaking. We all have moral values .. well, most of us..
..but they are not likely to be the same.

Naturally, it depends what one means by pious .. I mean those that are sincere in faith, and
not those that hold extreme beliefs and are misled away from Orthodoxy.