Longfellow
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They are. All of that is what it *means* in the Trinity doctrine to say that the Father and the Son are not the same person.
Thoughts about Trinity beliefs
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No ... no Christians do, except the LDS, as far as I understand it ...
So you're saying you don't believe in a doctrine you don't know?
I'm sorry, old chum, but this is just nonsense.
Longfellow
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No.
I have seen people doing that, but not here, so I don't know why I said that.
Are they? Do you know who?
walter
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I have been researching the Trinity since 1980, if we look at the Nicene Creed in the year 325AD or any other year, we will always find words Jesus never spoke.
I like to explain all my fundamental beliefs with strictly scriptures only. first I listen to what Jesus said, second I listen to the words of the Apostles especially if they agree with Jesus words, then I look for any other scriptures that agrees in the rest of the Bible.
I do not use the words from myself or anything that has been said at any time in history.
Jn. 17:3, 1Pet. 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Rom. 15:6, Eph. 1:17, Jn. 20:17, 1Cor. 8:6, 1Tim. 2:5, Jn. 5:30, 5:19, 6:38, 8:28, 14:10;
Matt. 16:16-17, 28:18
Jesus never uses the words "Trinity" "of the same essence" "God the Son" "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent" or the words in any creed throughout history and Jesus never explains that the Holy Spirit is also a equal God. Theologians say the Bible reveals these facts, but I listen to the words from Jesus and the Apostles that are written down in the Bible.
John 1:1 is translated in many different ways, most of the ways agree with the Trinity, others do not, Theologians say that Jesus called himself the great "I am", this scripture is also translated in many different ways too, I look for translations that agree with Jesus' own words not the ones that disagree, and not the words of the religious leaders that captured Jesus and led him to his death.
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This is where I keep coming up short ... who are these people?
I know you think I'm being short with you, and perhaps I am, but you keep talking about the mistakes of others, and making pejorative generalisations.
Longfellow
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I believed you when you said that there's no hostility in it. I agree that I've been disparaging people, and I'll try to do better.
This means you're looking for translations that agree with how you interpret what Jesus is saying...
walter
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I see what you are saying I think, but I try my best not to interpret any scriptures, I just read the words and let the words explain the meaning.
How is anybody going to use any verse in the Bible for a beneficial reason when another person can just say oh that's just the way you interpret it. Why read the Bible In the first place?
The Bible itself uses these words:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. Berean Standard Bible
Also: Acts 17:11, Romans 15:4, John 17:17, 1 Thessalonians 2:13
Please read all these scriptures and please explain what your interpretation is?
It's the same thing, @walter. We cannot read without understanding, so we bring our own understandings to the text. If you're not going to look at commentaries and so on, there's no way of knowing whether our understanding is correct or not.
It is not that Scripture is self-explanatory – the Jews, and the Apostles, and the Evangelists did not think so. The idea that Scripture explains itself – that anyone who reads it understands it – is quite modern, and quite demonstrably wrong.
We bring a modern understand to the text, and that understanding is mistaken.
walter
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I respectfully disagree.
walter
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No, the Bible does not explain that scriptures are open to any interpretation; rather, 2 Peter 1:20 states that prophecy is not of "any private interpretation". Instead of a wide-open invitation for subjective interpretation, the Bible suggests that its message is intended to be understood by those with a "teachable spirit" who are guided by the Holy Spirit to grasp the divine message. The context of Scripture itself is crucial for understanding its meaning, as ignoring it can lead to incorrect or "private" interpretations.
- Divine Authorship:
The Bible itself emphasizes that it was not created by human will but was given through God's men, who were moved by the Holy Spirit.
- Context is Key:
To avoid misinterpretation, one must understand the context of surrounding verses, the chapter, the book, and the entire Bible.
- The Holy Spirit guides believers to understand Scripture. A Christian must have a teachable spirit, seeking God's illumination to grasp the message of the Bible.
- Unity in Understanding:
The Bible encourages unity and discourages interpretations that contradict the overall message.
- "Scripture Interprets Scripture":
A common approach to understanding the Bible is to compare scripture with scripture, prayerfully asking for the aid of the Holy Spirit.
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Well that's your opinion to disagree ... but I do not agree with you.
Acts 8:30-31
"And, running up, Philip heard him (an Ethiopian courtier) reading Isaiah the prophet, and (Philip) said, “Do you really understand the things you are reading?” And he (the courtier) said, “Unless someone will guide me, how indeed could I?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
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Mark 9:36
"Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name, receiveth me."
What does that mean?
Mark 9:41
"And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
So here Jesus is clearly saying it's better to commit suicide than offend a child?
Mark 9:42
"And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off."
Mark 9:44
"And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off."
Mark 9:46
"And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out."
Are you suggesting the Bible approves suicide and self-mutilation?
Acts 8:30-31
"And, running up, Philip heard him (an Ethiopian courtier) reading Isaiah the prophet, and (Philip) said, “Do you really understand the things you are reading?” And he (the courtier) said, “Unless someone will guide me, how indeed could I?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
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Mark 9:36
"Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name, receiveth me."
What does that mean?
Mark 9:41
"And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
So here Jesus is clearly saying it's better to commit suicide than offend a child?
Mark 9:42
"And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off."
Mark 9:44
"And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off."
Mark 9:46
"And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out."
Are you suggesting the Bible approves suicide and self-mutilation?
walter
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Obviously you care about what the Bible says, and I respect anyone that does.
I consider anyone that believes in Jesus and his Father like a brother to me, I myself don't care that people believe differently, I have Christian love for anyone that believes in Jesus and his Father and those that put faith in only the Old Testament.
Jesus says we should love our neighbor and even our enemies, so I think that pretty much covers everybody in the world.
That's not what 2 Peter 1:20 says – you are interpreting the text to mean something other than what it is saying.
"And we have the still firmer prophetic word, of which you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a dreary place, till day
should dawn and the day star arise in your hearts, knowing knowing this before all else: that no prophecy of scripture comes from a private interpretation; for at no time was any prophecy produced by a human being’s will; rather, human beings spoke from God when they were borne along by a holy spirit."
Peter is talking about the 'prophetic word' and that "no prophecy of scripture comes from a private interpretation"
Peter is talking about the prophecies written in the Hebrew Scriptures, and the prophecies made known to the Apostles by Christ, they are not matters of private interpretation. He's not talking about our reading Scripture, he's talking about the source of prophecy itself, which is from God, and not the prophet's own understanding.
You see?
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My point entirely. And the language used. And the understanding of the sacred scribe ... therefore we must search the Bible, and the commentaries, and the exegetes ...
The Jews, to whom the Sacred Scriptures were given, never teach that 'Scripture explains itself' – that idea is non-biblical.
How do you know you have a teachable spirit?
How do you know you've understood the overall message, as clearly the way I see that is different to the way you see it.
That idea came about with the Reformation – but it was never meant to imply individual determination. It was always understood to mean Scripture explains Scripture according to the Reform doctrine.
walter
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Who wrote the commentaries? Do the commentaries come from the Bible?
walter
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I get your point of view.. Thanks for the information.. I will keep it in mind. I appreciate all your kind words.