Thoughts about Trinity beliefs

[TheLightWithin]

I was talking to my eldest grandson about Spiderman. "You know his name?" "Spiderman." "No, his first name." "I don't know." "It's Bob." And, according to me, every superhero, Ninja Turtle, Supermario ... every character he's into, their first name is Bob.

Doesn't that create confusion given that the characters do have names?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Who wrote the commentaries? Do the commentaries come from the Bible?

Depending on which commentaries, but by and large commentaries of the kind @Thomas is referring to are written by people who studied the bible deeply and have knowledge of the cultural linguistic and historical context that can help you make sense of what is written.

You cannot rely on it to be self explanatory. Often passages in the bible seem cryptic or vague. Or a reader just doesn't know what it means.

In regular life, people sometimes have to ask other people "what do you mean by that" when a reader reviews items as simple as grocery lists.

Certainly more serious material often takes some guidance for the reader.

 

[Thomas]

Doesn't that create confusion given that the characters do have names?

They handle it OK. It's got to a point now when anything anywhere crops up, I say "You know ... " and before I can finish eldest gc says "Bob!" with great exasperation and ignores me from there on ... it's a healthy relationship from there on.

But he does delight in telling me when real-world Bobs crop up.

 

[walter]

You cannot rely on it to be self explanatory.

I do not rely on my self, I rely on Jesus words - when I read Jesus words it's like he is right next to me, giving me his advice and his instructions. And I pray to God for guidance also. I allow Jesus actual words to be my commentary.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. New King James Bible

Luke 9:35
Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.” New Living Translation

Matthew 7:24-26
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. NIV

John 18:37
....Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” Berean Standard Bible

Matthew 7:7
New Living Translation
“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

 

[walter]

I do not rely on my self, I rely on Jesus words - when I read Jesus words it's like he is right next to me, giving me his advice and his instructions. And I pray to God for guidance also. I allow Jesus actual words to be my commentary.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. New King James Bible

Luke 9:35
Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.” New Living Translation

Matthew 7:24-26
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. NIV

John 18:37
....Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” Berean Standard Bible

Matthew 7:7
New Living Translation
“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

I am very reluctant to listen to what any man has to say because of scriptures like these:

Matthew 24:23
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
New King James Version

Matthew 24:5
5  for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. NWT

Matthew 7:15
Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

Galatians 1:8
New International Version
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Mark 7:8-9
Weymouth New Testament
8 "You neglect God's Commandment: you hold fast to men's traditions." 9 "Praiseworthy indeed!" He added, "to set at nought God's Commandment in order to observe your own traditions!

 

[walter]

I am very reluctant to listen to what any man has to say because of scriptures like these:

Matthew 24:23
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
New King James Version

Matthew 24:5
5  for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. NWT

Matthew 7:15
Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

Galatians 1:8
New International Version
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Mark 7:8-9
Weymouth New Testament
8 "You neglect God's Commandment: you hold fast to men's traditions." 9 "Praiseworthy indeed!" He added, "to set at nought God's Commandment in order to observe your own traditions!

2 John 9-11
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. NIV

Romans 16:17
17  Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.

I don't trust any commentary that explains anything unless it comes from Jesus or an Apostle. Each and every scripture guides me a little bit more.

 

[walter]

2 John 9-11
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. NIV

Romans 16:17
17  Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.

I don't trust any commentary that explains anything unless it comes from Jesus or an Apostle. Each and every scripture guides me a little bit more.

* The Father and Jesus give specific instructions for us to listen to Jesus and Jesus gives us specific instructions not to listen to the traditions of men.

 

[TheLightWithin]

You cannot rely on it to be self explanatory

I do not rely on my self, I rely on Jesus words

What I meant was we cannot rely on a text to be self explanatory. A text of any kind.
Even in ordinary life, simple texts often require consulting with the author.
If you have found that your experience in prayer has allowed you to have confidence that
1- the authors quoted Jesus accurately,
2- that the translations are accurate, and
3- that your understanding is accurate
Then you are in good shape for yourself and your practice of faith.
You only run into conflict when faced with other people who read the same texts, pray, and report being very convinced of a different interpretation than the one you might have arrived at.
And even that is only a conflict if either one of you is trying to control anything or influence each other.
If people experience clarity in private prayer as a part of personal religious devotion, I don't see any reason they shouldn't.

 

[TheLightWithin]

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. NIV

As far as interpretation goes, a person could interpret this as never allowing a guest in their home who doesn't believe the same.
It could potentially lead you to think that someone with different beliefs is "wicked"

"Wicked" could be interpreted as meaning someone who does very bad harmful things like violence.

So a person could interpret this as meaning that if someone doesn't agree with your personal interpretations or your church's interpretations, then the person with different beliefs not only could never visit your home, no matter how much you used to love them... but also could lead the reader to think that someone with different interpretations might do something very bad or violent and that if you let them in for dinner you are also to blame for how bad they are.... and then what happens? How would you respond? Do you not let family into your home unless they affirm every bit of scripture in terms of how you understand it? If they don't, do you see them as "wicked" and does "wicked" mean they are horrible dangerous people? Maybe you do not think this... but do you see how someone COULD interpret this passage that way?

However, this passage could also be interpreted as telling a congregation or church authority to not bring in a minister into a house of worship that doesn't agree with how the congregation or authority understand scripture. And may have nothing to do with people welcoming others into their personal home for a visit.

Do you see how interpretations can be not so clear cut?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Romans 16:17
17  Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.

Does that mean people from different religions or different denominations should not speak to one another?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Matthew 7:15
Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

Almost every denomination or religion could point to each other and call each other wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Matthew 24:23
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
New King James Version

I think this could mean never listen to any televangelist or thundering preacher or any public figure who invokes religion as their authority.
It could mean never praise or admire a public figure who promotes their ideas as being Christian ideas.
Especially if they are making a living that way.
Too many false prophets.
Getting profits.

What if someone interprets that another way though?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Matthew 24:5
5  for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. NWT

What if they loudly say "I am Christian" and then go on to rattle off all kinds of things about how they want to treat others like joel webbon does.
Is this close enough to being a false Christ?
Is that a sign of a false Christ, to try to influence social order via religious rants?

 

[walter]

What I meant was we cannot rely on a text to be self explanatory. A text of any kind.
Even in ordinary life, simple texts often require consulting with the author.
If you have found that your experience in prayer has allowed you to have confidence that
1- the authors quoted Jesus accurately,
2- that the translations are accurate, and
3- that your understanding is accurate
Then you are in good shape for yourself and your practice of faith.
You only run into conflict when faced with other people who read the same texts, pray, and report being very convinced of a different interpretation than the one you might have arrived at.
And even that is only a conflict if either one of you is trying to control anything or influence each other.
If people experience clarity in private prayer as a part of personal religious devotion, I don't see any reason they shouldn't.

There is more than 1,000's of religions in the world that use some kind of holy scriptures, some receive interpretation from the Holy Spirit, others get their information from angels like Muslims and Mormons, others use commentary to assist their interpretation, still others like Jehovah's Witnesses get their information strictly from the Bible alone. Even though people claim they get it from the Watchtower, they wholeheartedly back up their fundamental beliefs by scriptures alone.

But of course this information is a subject for debate.

 

[walter]

As far as interpretation goes, a person could interpret this as never allowing a guest in their home who doesn't believe the same.
It could potentially lead you to think that someone with different beliefs is "wicked"

"Wicked" could be interpreted as meaning someone who does very bad harmful things like violence.

So a person could interpret this as meaning that if someone doesn't agree with your personal interpretations or your church's interpretations, then the person with different beliefs not only could never visit your home, no matter how much you used to love them... but also could lead the reader to think that someone with different interpretations might do something very bad or violent and that if you let them in for dinner you are also to blame for how bad they are.... and then what happens? How would you respond? Do you not let family into your home unless they affirm every bit of scripture in terms of how you understand it? If they don't, do you see them as "wicked" and does "wicked" mean they are horrible dangerous people? Maybe you do not think this... but do you see how someone COULD interpret this passage that way?

However, this passage could also be interpreted as telling a congregation or church authority to not bring in a minister into a house of worship that doesn't agree with how the congregation or authority understand scripture. And may have nothing to do with people welcoming others into their personal home for a visit.

Do you see how interpretations can be not so clear cut?

If you look at 50 different Bibles translated into English, the word wicked is not consistently translated to wicked in English, besides to me I apply the other scriptures about love, love conquers all things, and the Bible says conquer the evil with the good.

 

[walter]

Does that mean people from different religions or different denominations should not speak to one another?

The scriptures say to even love your enemies, to pray for those that persecute you, to love your neighbor as yourself, to do unto others like you would want them to do unto you, if we consider all the scriptures I think it sheds a different light on other scriptures, but Jesus and the rest of the Bible are warning us to be careful, what looks and sounds like truthful information may not be.

The Apostle Paul writes this down in the book of Acts:
Acts 17:11
New American Standard Bible
Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

This is what the apostle Paul wrote down in the book of Acts. Wouldn't Paul's words be an example for us to follow?

 

[walter]

Almost every denomination or religion could point to each other and call each other wolves in sheep's clothing.

Yes you are correct, many religions in the first, second and third centuries did that very thing.

The Jewish people that followed the old law, The Greek and Hebrew Jews that believed in Jesus, The Romans, and many others considered the other religions to be heretics, each one thought they were correct and the others were heretics.

 

[walter]

I think this could mean never listen to any televangelist or thundering preacher or any public figure who invokes religion as their authority.
It could mean never praise or admire a public figure who promotes their ideas as being Christian ideas.
Especially if they are making a living that way.
Too many false prophets.
Getting profits.

What if someone interprets that another way though?

Don't you think that people that give out false information comes in many shapes and sizes and uniforms?

 

[walter]

joel webbon

I don't know this person and I don't know what he teaches.

It is not important for me to debate this point or that point, what's important to me is to explain my fundamental beliefs with scriptures alone, and then look at the other person's fundamental beliefs and the scriptures they use to explain each belief.

 

[walter]

besides I do not want to consider anybody as incorrect, I just want to express why I believe something and see why other people believe what they believe. And leave it at that, and maybe I'll learn something, and spread Christian kindness and love as much as possible.