Purgatory?

We are to repent of any and all things contrary to God's revealed word which means we need to study the Bible so we might be better conformed to what He desires. We also need to face the reality that even though we Christians are redeemed, we are still battling our sins and, unfortunately, we fail too often to live up to the standard of God's holy perfection. This is why we need Jesus.
When we become Christians, the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us; that is, it is reckoned to our account so that God sees us as being righteous because of the work of Christ.


Jesus bore all our sins, not just some of them, not just the ones we are able to repent of, but also the ones that we struggle with and continually fight against. The important truth is that we are not redeemed by our efforts at holiness and we do not maintain salvation by repenting and not sinning. All our hope and security is in Jesus and He loves us and forgives us as often as we need it.
There is absolutely no penance that we can do that can ever please God in anyway. If there were, then Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The simple truth is that if we try and do something to suffer in order to make ourselves right with God, we are insulting God and the very work of Christ on the cross by attempting to please God by our works.
 
Dor said:
I believe the quotes from 1 Cor 3 on this post is from judgement day when our actions and motives are tested and our rewards are granted not some place me make up for our sins.
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Then we are talking about the same thing it seems, as I also do not think there is a place where we make up for our sins. How could we make up for them anyway? What could we do except see them for what they are and then leave them behind?
 
Dor said:
We are to repent of any and all things contrary to God's revealed word which means we need to study the Bible so we might be better conformed to what He desires. We also need to face the reality that even though we Christians are redeemed, we are still battling our sins and, unfortunately, we fail too often to live up to the standard of God's holy perfection. This is why we need Jesus.
When we become Christians, the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us; that is, it is reckoned to our account so that God sees us as being righteous because of the work of Christ.
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I would phrase it differently, but in essence I agree.


Jesus bore all our sins, not just some of them, not just the ones we are able to repent of, but also the ones that we struggle with and continually fight against.
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I agree.

The important truth is that we are not redeemed by our efforts at holiness and we do not maintain salvation by repenting and not sinning. All our hope and security is in Jesus and He loves us and forgives us as often as we need it.
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I agree. However maybe I have a different understanding of what repentence is. To me it does not mean to suffer or have punishment in this life, and it does not mean to just be really really sorry (although both of those may be side-effects of true repentence), but to repent means to really change my ways...to transform and align my way with God's, by and with God's help. This is the way to healing...in this life.


There is absolutely no penance that we can do that can ever please God in anyway.
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And I don't think any is expected, esp not in a quid pro quo manner.
If there were, then Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The simple truth is that if we try and do something to suffer in order to make ourselves right with God, we are insulting God and the very work of Christ on the cross by attempting to please God by our works.
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I understand and agree, although I would phrase it differently, put emphasis differently. But, it would amount to the same thing, as long as we understand that these are the signs and not the things signified.

But, you do believe in repentence in this life: We need to aim for righteousness, even as we realize that in this fallen world we too will always fall short? And that it is God's grace that covers this gap.

luna
 
Hi Luna ... go for it!

Hi InLove ...
I don't quite know how to explain The Goons to anyone who hasn't heard them, 'inspired lunacy' doesn't do them credit... their creator was Spike Milligan, the father of alternative comedy, who did it all, and much more subversively, and more surreally, before anyone else...

Thomas
 
Weighing in...

Don't believe in Purgatory. Do believe in the sleep of the dead.

my2c

Mark
 
Dor said:
Mee,

Mark this down we actually agree.

I have one question for all of you that beliefs there is such a place.*well maybe 2*
Why did Jesus die? Why do you limit his righteousness?

Q,
"All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

That is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030.
The way you had it wrote made it seem you were saying it was from Revelation 21.
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No, I did not. I quoted Catholic apologetics, and an explanation to a question about what Catholicism expresses. That is why the whole thing is in quotations.

I personally do not believe in purgatory...:eek: but then I'm not a perfect catholic either...
 
Thomas said:
I don't quite know how to explain The Goons to anyone who hasn't heard them, 'inspired lunacy' doesn't do them credit... their creator was Spike Milligan, the father of alternative comedy, who did it all, and much more subversively, and more surreally, before anyone else...
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We in the states know of Peter Sellers....the goons are nuts...old time radio is great stuff...I've only caught some video clips...but they played them on the radio about 10 years ago for a couple of years every Sunday evening...
 
Luna,

You said,

"Of interest is Article3 XXII., which (to my surprise) is a rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory. However, we do pray for the deceased."

--> You reminded me of something from Japanese religion/culture. It is the origin of the most popular Japanese summer religious activity, called the Bon Odori Dance.

A man had heard (we can only assume from a psychic person) that his deceased mother had just been released from "Purgatory" and allowed to enter "Heaven". Upon hearing the news, he began to dance with joy.

This "dance for the dead" (a tacky way to describe it, but I do not know how else to describe it) has become the most popular cultural and religious celebration in summer in Japan. Bon Ododri festivals are celebrated in summer in every Japanese city, and in cities with Japanese populations such as Los Angeles and Honolulu.
 
Silas said:
I see no reason in scripture to assume that we will need some sort of healing. Rather, I see manifold evidence that the opposite may be the case, namely that, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be glorified and perfect as our Father and God is perfect. In Heaven, we will see God as He is and it is this awesome sight that will cause us to forget about our life on earth. I'd love to speak more about what seeing God would be like, but I'm all too aware that nothing I say will suffice or even come close to the reality of infinite joy that we will have when we see our Creator face-to-face. As the Apostle Paul said, "our present suffering are nothing to be compared with the glory that lies ahead."
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Before Isaiah had the vision of the throne of God, he spent several chapters lambasting Israel in a series of "woes". But in chapter 6, Isaiah exclaims "Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips." In the presence of God, he knew his worthiness. In the midst of the "Holy, Holy, Holy", he knew how much greater God was in comparision. Now I do not believe that anyone who comes into the presence of God is not going to experience a great change. There will be nothing hidden, all secrets are out. What ever else needs purging in our soul, we will experience it. Yes, the Blood of Christ washes away all sin, but will still know the awesomeness in the presence of God. We will experience a healing in our soul from sin, we will know an overwhelming forgiveness from God, and He will wipe away all tears. I think we will initially have tears for Him to wipe when we get there.

The Trre of Life on the side of the river flowing from the throne of God in Rev 22:1 is for the healing of the nations. I believe there will be time reconcile ourselves with each other, that healing will take place. I do not know if it will take place all at once, for we must deal with each other in eternity. How are we going to relate if these issues aren't resolved?


By the way, I highlighted something that I thought was interesting. You mentioned that it is by the grace of God people become Chrisitan. How do you understand that in light of your beleif that man has a self-determining will to become a Christian on his own? Who makes a man a Christian - the man by his faith, or God by his gift of grace and faith?
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Number #1 - I was attempting to use the term "by the grace of God" in my post as more of a colliqualism, much as one would say, "there, but by the grace of God, go I". I'm sure you've heard it used this way.

Number #2 - Even if I were to use it theologically speaking, it would still have a meaning different that what you are proposing. Grace means different things to you and I, according to our respective beliefs. But I do not wish to be dragged into this same argument again, which you are so fond of doing.

Number #3 - You make it sound as if I believe that God has no part in salvation, that it is solely man's doing. If that is what you think I believe, you misunderstand my beliefs. Both God and man have roles in salvation.
 
Dondi

Before Isaiah had the vision of the throne of God, he spent several chapters lambasting Israel in a series of "woes". But in chapter 6, Isaiah exclaims "Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips." In the presence of God, he knew his worthiness (worthlessness). In the midst of the "Holy, Holy, Holy", he knew how much greater God was in comparision. Now I do not believe that anyone who comes into the presence of God is not going to experience a great change. There will be nothing hidden, all secrets are out. What ever else needs purging in our soul, we will experience it. Yes, the Blood of Christ washes away all sin, but will still know the awesomeness in the presence of God. We will experience a healing in our soul from sin, we will know an overwhelming forgiveness from God, and He will wipe away all tears. I think we will initially have tears for Him to wipe when we get there.

The Trre of Life on the side of the river flowing from the throne of God in Rev 22:1 is for the healing of the nations. I believe there will be time reconcile ourselves with each other, that healing will take place. I do not know if it will take place all at once, for we must deal with each other in eternity. How are we going to relate if these issues aren't resolved?

As a Christian you must let the Bible, and it alone, shape your understanding of who God is. He is BIGGER than our problems and can, in one faction of an instant, reconcile our woes of any kind. If there were something in scripture that suggested that we are going to need time to have our feelings whiped away, then I would agree with you. But again, there is nothing in scripture for me to draw that conclussion. Therefore, I cannot. By the way, I put in blue "worthlessness." Is that what you meant to say?


Number #1 - I was attempting to use the term "by the grace of God" in my post as more of a colliqualism, much as one would say, "there, but by the grace of God, go I". I'm sure you've heard it used this way.

Yes, I've heard the saying. It is a true one based on scriputure.

Number #2 - Even if I were to use it theologically speaking, it would still have a meaning different that what you are proposing. Grace means different things to you and I, according to our respective beliefs. But I do not wish to be dragged into this same argument again, which you are so fond of doing.

Grace has been definied as unmerited and undeserved favor. If you have another defination other than these, I'd like to hear it.

Number #3 - You make it sound as if I believe that God has no part in salvation, that it is solely man's doing. If that is what you think I believe, you misunderstand my beliefs. Both God and man have roles in salvation.

Man's role in salvation is to recornize his lostness and in humilty cry out to God for faith and repentence. "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief!" says the sinner. Soon, the sinner recornizes that faith was not his gift to God, but God's gift to him.
 
Dor said:
Mee,

Mark this down we actually agree.

kquote]
:) i dont believe it LOL ....sticking to the bible is the way to go
The expressions "immortal soul," "hellfire," "purgatory," and "Limbo" are nowhere found in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible. In contrast, the Greek word for "resurrection" (a·na´sta·sis) occurs 42 times.
The subtle influence of Greek philosophy was a key factor in the apostasy that followed the death of the apostles. would you agree that this teaching of purgatory is an apostasy.
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Prober said:
Weighing in...

Don't believe in Purgatory. Do believe in the sleep of the dead.

my2c

Mark
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yes , and Jesus can wake us up.
On the basis of the authority granted to him by his Father.Jesus likens death to a sleep....as John 11;11-14 says,
He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." 12 Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." 13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Laz´a·rus has died,
 
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