Who created Evil?

Thomas

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The philosopher Paul Ricoeur evil not as a theological question, but as an existential and moral challenge requiring a response. In The Symbolism of Evil (1960), he argues that evil cannot be fully grasped through rational or propositional logic. Instead, it is best understood through myth and symbolism, which reveal the human experience of fault, guilt, and alienation.

"As a species," David Bentley Hart observes, "we learned to tell stories about the gods long before it ever occurred to us to tell stories about ourselves... It was a very long time indeed before we began to realize that we had tales to tell from which the gods might be absent, or at least within which they could remain safely hidden, without rendering the narratives incoherent."

Of those ancient days, our stories tended to events 'before our time', and often 'outside' or 'above' time or, as we like to say, "Once upon a time ... "

These stories – these histories – are far different narratives than 'histories' in the sense in which we use the term now, by which we compose "records of our remembered adventures in ordinary time" to cite Hart again, and the key here is the word 'remembered', a term which covers, if you'll allow, a multitude of sins.

Despite the rigours and limits of 'history' as we define it today, the most natural narrative idiom for making sense of our place in the world remains myth. We spin stories ...

And what sets Ricoeur apart is he investigates not the content of our myths, but the way in which our narratives – all our narratives – are attempts to encompass meaning, those meanings being the narratives of our lived experience.

In the following, rather than essay to preserve 'myth' from contemporary reductive and insipid definition, I will replace it with the term 'narrative', one that carries less irrelevant baggage.

+++


Ricoeur identifies four major narratives of evil that reflect how cultures have historically interpreted evil:
1] Cosmogonic narrative (eg. the Babylonian Enuma Elish) – sees evil as a primordial chaos co-eternal with good, prior even to the gods.
2] Adamic narrative – centers on human responsibility, where evil originates from a voluntary misuse of freedom, not external forces.
3] Tragic narrative (eg. Oedipus) – portrays evil as an inescapable fate, where the individual is both guilty and victim, often due to divine deception.
4] Exiled soul narrative (eg. Orpheus) – frames evil as a loss of origin and belonging, a wandering from one's true self.

Ricoeur regards the Adamic narrative as the most ethically significant because it engages human agency directly. Such evils arises not from an external force, but from a "servile will" – freedom that chooses self-enslavement. Guilt, unlike suffering, is not merely a consequence of, but a self-acknowledgment of, one's own bad choice.

The human condition, according to Ricoeur, is fundamentally fallible – marked by a "disproportion" between our finite existence and our infinite aspirations. This is not a sign of inherent evil, but of potential for moral failure.

(In the four narratives, the idea of immortality, the quest for eternal life, directly in the Cosmogonic and the Adamic, and implicit in the Tragic and the Exiled. Likewise Exile and Return, or the Outward / Inward, and so on.)

In Evil: A Challenge to Philosophy and Theology (1985), Ricoeur rejects theodicy – the attempt to justify God in the face of evil – as philosophically and spiritually inadequate. Instead, he calls for a "response" to evil, not a "solution."
 
Exiled soul narrative (eg. Orpheus) – frames evil as a loss of origin and belonging, a wandering from one's true self.
My favorite. Seems in line with Shilling’s Great Slumbering. That the physical dimension is asleep from God. It would seem to me that the sleep is neither God’s nor our faults, but there is something we can contribute to the project of awakening Creation. I suppose willful ignorance/sleep would be the Adamic version of sin/evil. Also I would tend to reserve “evil” to more intransigent constellations of sin.
 
I found this from A.I. Overview on internet. See if it jives with my notion that definition 4 fits best with it:

Friedrich Schelling’s concept of the "slumbering" refers to the dormant, unconscious, and chaotic state of nature and the divine, which holds the potential for consciousness, form, and freedom
. This idea is central to his Naturphilosophie(Philosophy of Nature) and his later Ages of the World (Die Weltalter), where he describes a "deep chasm" or "dark ground" of primordial, unorganized force that awaits activation by the "living Logos".
Key aspects of Schelling's concept of the slumbering include:
  • The Unconscious Ground of Nature: Schelling views nature as a "slumbering spirit" or a "dumb" force, a "wave-wound whirling sea" of pre-rational chaos. It is a state of "total paralysis" where forces are "locked and spellbound, frozen, [and] struggling for release".
  • The Awakening Process: This dormant state is not static but a "necessary setting" for the development of higher consciousness. It is the process of "darkness to light," where the "slumbering spirit" awakens and becomes conscious.
  • The "Ages of the World" and Divinity: In his later work, Schelling describes God as having a "dark ground" or "contractive" moment—a divine longing or potentiality that is unconscious before it becomes active. This "slumbering" is the divine self-shrouding in darkness.
  • "Slumbering" as Potentiality: The slumbering is not simply non-being, but the "invisible remainder" or the "unregulated and unconditioned" power that must be "lifted into an active unity". It is the necessary, raw material (both in nature and God) that allows for freedom and creation.
 
I found this from A.I. Overview on internet. See if it jives with my notion that definition 4 fits best with it:

Friedrich Schelling’s concept of the "slumbering" refers to the dormant, unconscious, and chaotic state of nature and the divine, which holds the potential for consciousness, form, and freedom
. This idea is central to his Naturphilosophie(Philosophy of Nature) and his later Ages of the World (Die Weltalter), where he describes a "deep chasm" or "dark ground" of primordial, unorganized force that awaits activation by the "living Logos".
Key aspects of Schelling's concept of the slumbering include:
  • The Unconscious Ground of Nature: Schelling views nature as a "slumbering spirit" or a "dumb" force, a "wave-wound whirling sea" of pre-rational chaos. It is a state of "total paralysis" where forces are "locked and spellbound, frozen, [and] struggling for release".
  • The Awakening Process: This dormant state is not static but a "necessary setting" for the development of higher consciousness. It is the process of "darkness to light," where the "slumbering spirit" awakens and becomes conscious.
  • The "Ages of the World" and Divinity: In his later work, Schelling describes God as having a "dark ground" or "contractive" moment—a divine longing or potentiality that is unconscious before it becomes active. This "slumbering" is the divine self-shrouding in darkness.
  • "Slumbering" as Potentiality: The slumbering is not simply non-being, but the "invisible remainder" or the "unregulated and unconditioned" power that must be "lifted into an active unity". It is the necessary, raw material (both in nature and God) that allows for freedom and creation.
Seems to fit the Hindu or Hindu-derived concept of Moshka (sp?) sometimes portrayed as strong blind man that Perushna (sp? word?), the seeing but crippled/weak boy, rides on the shoulder of as the two together navigate Creation
 
The philosopher Paul Ricoeur evil not as a theological question, but as an existential and moral challenge requiring a response. In The Symbolism of Evil (1960), he argues that evil cannot be fully grasped through rational or propositional logic. Instead, it is best understood through myth and symbolism, which reveal the human experience of fault, guilt, and alienation.

"As a species," David Bentley Hart observes, "we learned to tell stories about the gods long before it ever occurred to us to tell stories about ourselves... It was a very long time indeed before we began to realize that we had tales to tell from which the gods might be absent, or at least within which they could remain safely hidden, without rendering the narratives incoherent."

Of those ancient days, our stories tended to events 'before our time', and often 'outside' or 'above' time or, as we like to say, "Once upon a time ... "

These stories – these histories – are far different narratives than 'histories' in the sense in which we use the term now, by which we compose "records of our remembered adventures in ordinary time" to cite Hart again, and the key here is the word 'remembered', a term which covers, if you'll allow, a multitude of sins.

Despite the rigours and limits of 'history' as we define it today, the most natural narrative idiom for making sense of our place in the world remains myth. We spin stories ...

And what sets Ricoeur apart is he investigates not the content of our myths, but the way in which our narratives – all our narratives – are attempts to encompass meaning, those meanings being the narratives of our lived experience.

In the following, rather than essay to preserve 'myth' from contemporary reductive and insipid definition, I will replace it with the term 'narrative', one that carries less irrelevant baggage.

+++


Ricoeur identifies four major narratives of evil that reflect how cultures have historically interpreted evil:
1] Cosmogonic narrative (eg. the Babylonian Enuma Elish) – sees evil as a primordial chaos co-eternal with good, prior even to the gods.
2] Adamic narrative – centers on human responsibility, where evil originates from a voluntary misuse of freedom, not external forces.
3] Tragic narrative (eg. Oedipus) – portrays evil as an inescapable fate, where the individual is both guilty and victim, often due to divine deception.
4] Exiled soul narrative (eg. Orpheus) – frames evil as a loss of origin and belonging, a wandering from one's true self.

Ricoeur regards the Adamic narrative as the most ethically significant because it engages human agency directly. Such evils arises not from an external force, but from a "servile will" – freedom that chooses self-enslavement. Guilt, unlike suffering, is not merely a consequence of, but a self-acknowledgment of, one's own bad choice.

The human condition, according to Ricoeur, is fundamentally fallible – marked by a "disproportion" between our finite existence and our infinite aspirations. This is not a sign of inherent evil, but of potential for moral failure.

(In the four narratives, the idea of immortality, the quest for eternal life, directly in the Cosmogonic and the Adamic, and implicit in the Tragic and the Exiled. Likewise Exile and Return, or the Outward / Inward, and so on.)

In Evil: A Challenge to Philosophy and Theology (1985), Ricoeur rejects theodicy – the attempt to justify God in the face of evil – as philosophically and spiritually inadequate. Instead, he calls for a "response" to evil, not a "solution."
To me the notion of an absolutely powerful God has to be tossed in order to make room for a Loving God. And Creation itself must be viewed more as a spawn of God than an artistic creation. Creation was a happy accident in the sense that God’s offshoot manages to retain some of His divinity (in line with Schelling’s view of the Slumbering as potential?).
If God is ALL powerful then He allows great suffering, is either indifferent to our suffering or finds sadistic entertainment from it. His entertainment at our expense. If Creation is an intentional artwork, the same problem occurs—His entertainment at our expense. One possible alternative explanation that salvages God’s Love would be that He is also not omniscient, All Knowing. So that when he created this Creation and declared that it was very good, He did not foresee the suffering to come.
Still, as compared to us a loving God can be most powerful and most knowing.
 
Friedrich Schelling’s concept of the "slumbering" refers to the dormant, unconscious, and chaotic state of nature and the divine, which holds the potential for consciousness, form, and freedom ...
I rather regard this as more akin to the first, the Cosmogonic Narrative?

From what I gather, Schelling's talking about primordial nature here, and according to Stanford, he never managed to successful articulate "the relationship between the I and the world of nature, without either reverting to Kantian dualism or failing to explain how a purely objective nature could give rise to subjectivity."

The Stanford article also says:
"McGrath, in contrast, talks in terms of: 'An absolute future when pantheism will be real, when God will actually be everything, without any diminishment of the reality of individual things, the eventfulness of time or the freedom of the human being – this is the master-thought of the late Schelling' (McGrath 2021: 65)."
Unfortunately, it doesn't actually identify 'McGrath 2021' – neither author nor text, somewhat annoying, as that brief citation can be interpreted in a negative or positive light (pantheism or panentheism), but I can't find a context.
 
To me the notion of an absolutely powerful God has to be tossed in order to make room for a Loving God.
I don't see why? The idea of God's absolute power and infinite love is central to the Abrahamic Traditions ... there is no need to 'make room', it's there through and through.

I can absolutely agree that contemporary right-wing pseudo-Christianity of the West preaches a kind of nationalism that is offensive to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

We'd do better to approach a just notion of absolute power, but we're skating close to politics here, so I'll leave it at that.

And a Loving God who is powerless robs love of its essential meaning. Love is the Ultimate Power because it overcomes every obstacle and impediment. Without that it reduces to a false and craven piety. One can only truly love from a position of strength.

And Creation itself must be viewed more as a spawn of God than an artistic creation.
Well that speaks more of pantheism than monism, and personally I reject the former in favour of the latter.

Creation was a happy accident in the sense that God’s offshoot manages to retain some of His divinity (in line with Schelling’s view of the Slumbering as potential?).
Your inferring contingency and all manner of categorical deficiency to the Divine, so we're talking two entirey different entities here.

If God is ALL powerful then He allows great suffering, is either indifferent to our suffering or finds sadistic entertainment from it...
This, and the remains of your post, is an anthropomorphic version of the paradox attributed to Epicurus (341-270BC).

The argument fails on a number of points:
1] False Dilemma Fallacy: It ignores nuanced theological views such as free will, divine sovereignty, and the greater good.
2] Misunderstanding of Free Will: The paradox assumes that genuine free will is incompatible with a world without evil.
3] Over-Simplification of Evil: Christian theology holds that evil is not a creation of God, but the absence of good, and arises from the exercise of the will in the face of reason.
There are others.
 
The Adamic Myth finds the origin of evil in the historic activity of man: evil enters the world through man's free conscious acts. For this reason Ricoeur calls the Adamic myth 'reflective' or 'deliberative', whereas the other types, the cosmogonic, the tragic, the exile, are 'speculative' because they located the origin of evil prior to the existential experience of human decision and action.

In the biblical account of the 'beginning,' the human person is created by God as a finite, good and innocent son of God. Creation is of God and is radically good. It is Adam as the 'First Man' who originates evil and causes a condition homogeneous with ours.

In the Adamic myth evil is a deviation from the good and sin is a turning away from God. So the Adamic myth is not strictly speaking a 'Fall of Man' narrative in the same sense as the Myth of Exile. The Adamic myth is an ethical vision of the world in which evil originates in a human act of 'will' (freedom).

The biblical 'beginning' was a-temporally constituted by God and the 'end' will be a-temporally reconciled by God. The biblical notion of history is
the story of man's hope for deliverance and the reconciling acts of God. The Adamic myth views creation as proceeding from God and salvation as man's return to God. This exitus and reditus It understands that return as a recovery of authentic human freedom begun in God's love for His creature and brought to fulfilment by the creature's love for God – it is love that overcomes evil, in the way light 'overcomes' darkness.

(Parsed from Paul Ricoeur's Philosophy of Religious Symbol: A Critique and Dialectical Transposition, Emil J. Piscitelli, Northern Virginia Community College, Anandale, VA, U.S.A)
 
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The Myth of the Exiled Soul is the most 'philosophical' of four, because it comes to us transformed by the reflective thought of the Platonic and Neo-Platonic tradition. It is the philosophic transmission of a lost or forgotten Orphic drama of a primordial fall of a divine soul into an earthly body.

This inner dualism and alienation of soul and body is unique to the myth of the exiled soul. In the myth man is divided in his essential being; in his earthly existence he forgets his original state and becomes imprisoned in the passions of the body. The myth has ancient roots and is reminiscent of archaic Hinduism.

Later Platonic philosophy modifies the myth by placing human deliverance in a special kind of knowledge. In the myth the body becomes the symbol of felt conflicts from which a man can escape only by returning to his true inner nature: the soul. Human life on earth is experienced as intrinsically evil and man's only salvation is a spiritual purification by special knowledge. The myth of the exiled soul is the original source for the theme of the 'Fall of Man' which became fused with the biblical myth. It is also the source for the themes of wandering and forgetfulness developed in the Homeric Odyssey and so many other religious and philosophical traditions in the West.

(from Paul Ricoeur's Philosophy of Religious Symbol: A Critique and Dialectical Transposition, Emil J. Piscitelli, Northern Virginia Community College, Anandale, VA, U.S.A)
 
It dont take much to find scripture where our loving G!d aint so loving.

But if we play a no free will game is anything evil?

Beauty like evil is in the eye of the beholder and we will easily find rationale where something is or isn't evil depending on perspective (ask a vegan)

But created evil? If one believes in an omnipotent creator the buck stops there.

Me thinks evil is, always will be and always has been.
 
1] False Dilemma Fallacy: It ignores nuanced theological views such as free will, divine sovereignty, and the greater good.
Thomas, Jersak (author of A More Christlike God) claims God intentionally, all powerfully, allowed for free will. Jersak says He “consented” to our having free will. I agree that we do have free will but not because God put it into this “video game” called our reality so he could experience our love instead of our mechanical compliance. Are there other Gods that remained whole into themselves so as not to need the video game? Why Creation at all? Why, free will or not, is our God willing to allow suffering by our own hands so he can experience love when we finally get around to choosing Him? Why must we play the game at all?
Unless He did NOT create the game and is willing to help us make lemonade out of the lemons in the game?

Here’s my line of thought that I shared with our group leader of group discussing Jersak’s book:

Jersak (author of A More Christlike God)
: “But God may appear complicit in our violence because God allows it; God consents to it and consents to us.”

Me: Jersak seems to be protecting the notion of an all powerful God by assuming God consents. If creation is something that slipped away from God but still has some of God’s qualities (and power) in it, why would we need to say he consents? Did I consent to my special mug (given to me by my grandchildren) to it fall and break the handle away from the mug and into three or four pieces? Did I give it freedom?

But my mug that I valued managed to maintain enough integrity, wholeness, to be salvageable. Using an epoxy I reconnected the parts of the handle to each other and reconnected the handle to the body of the mug. Years later the fix still works. The restoration process was beautiful but not because I consented to the mug’s freedom to fall and break.

What is wrong with a fallible God who is nonetheless more powerful than us and who we may work with towards restoration of beauty and goodness in our world (“mug”)?

By assuming that our freedom is a result of God’s consent Jersak still seems to be protecting his strong daddy in the sky. It is hard for a young son who feels like he lacks power and mastery to admit that his main role model may not be super powerful. But if God really is of the same stuff as love, and we realize that in the long run love and other forms of spiritual soft power is more powerful than force or obvious power why can we not admit the human like vulnerabilities of our “daddy?”

Jersak like so many of us seems to be clinging to God out of dependency as opposed to simply being spiritually empowered to utilize God to help us restore goodness and beauty in the world. Trusting in God is not depending on God. It is fully using God. God needs us to help restore the mug/world as much as we need Him/Her/It to help us. We have spiritually grown up.
 
God has given us the rational ability to choose good over evil. There is no independent source of evil, it is but the lack of good.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things"

Thus explanation by Abdul'baha sheds more light on Isiah 45:7.

"Man is the highest degree of materiality, and at the beginning of spirituality—that is to say, he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light; that is why it has been said that the condition of man is the end of the night and the beginning of day, meaning that he is the sum of all the degrees of imperfection, and that he possesses the degrees of perfection. He has the animal side as well as the angelic side, and the aim of an educator is to so train human souls that their angelic aspect may overcome their animal side. Then if the divine power in man, which is his essential perfection, overcomes the satanic powers, which is absolute imperfection, he becomes the most excellent among creatures; but if the satanic power overcomes the divine power, he becomes the lowest of the creatures. That is why he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. Not in any other of the species in the world of existence is their such a difference, contrast, contradiction and opposition as in the species of man. Thus the reflection of the Divine Light was in man, as in Christ, and see how loved and honoured He is!…"

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Some Answered Questions, pp. 235-236, Wilmette, 1984 ed.)

Regards Tony
 
It dont take much to find scripture where our loving G!d aint so loving.
OK, but that doesn't prove anything.

But if we play a no free will game is anything evil?
I would say no, because evil depends on free will.

Beauty like evil is in the eye of the beholder and we will easily find rationale where something is or isn't evil depending on perspective (ask a vegan)
Yes, so we have to look to first principles, rather than anecdotal evidence.

But created evil? If one believes in an omnipotent creator the buck stops there.
No, as for reasons explained, evil is caused, not created.

Me thinks evil is, always will be and always has been.
OK.
 
Thomas, Jersak (author of A More Christlike God) claims God intentionally, all powerfully, allowed for free will. Jersak says He “consented” to our having free will. I agree that we do have free will but not because God put it into this “video game” called our reality so he could experience our love instead of our mechanical compliance. Are there other Gods that remained whole into themselves so as not to need the video game? Why Creation at all? Why, free will or not, is our God willing to allow suffering by our own hands so he can experience love when we finally get around to choosing Him? Why must we play the game at all?
Unless He did NOT create the game and is willing to help us make lemonade out of the lemons in the game?
It's the "video game" that leaves me stumped. I don't accept life as a video game, at least at face value, nor understand any nuanced meaning you have for it, so I'm left at a loss.

If creation is something that slipped away from God but still has some of God’s qualities (and power) in it, why would we need to say he consents?
I don't accept that creation 'slipped away from God' nor can I conceive of a God in which such could happen?

What is wrong with a fallible God
Because it's a contradiction. If you're proposing a fallible God, you've got a lot of work to do, because that entity bears no relation to the deity spoken of the the Abrahamics, the Vedic texts, and so forth.

By assuming that our freedom is a result of God’s consent Jersak still seems to be protecting his strong daddy in the sky.
Only in your way of thinking of power. Love is the ultimate power.

It is hard for a young son who feels like he lacks power and mastery to admit that his main role model may not be super powerful. But if God really is of the same stuff as love, and we realize that in the long run love and other forms of spiritual soft power is more powerful than force or obvious power why can we not admit the human like vulnerabilities of our “daddy?”
I would say the Incarnation is the ultimate expression of Divine vulnerability. By vulnerability do you mean fallibility?

Jersak like so many of us seems to be clinging to God out of dependency as opposed to simply being spiritually empowered to utilize God to help us restore goodness and beauty in the world.
God is not a utility.

Then again, that 'utility' is love.

So not having read Jersak, but in response to your statement, perhaps Jersak is presenting a God who spiritually empowers us to participate in the Divine Life, to become children of God, so that in and by love we might restore our blighted vision of goodness and beauty in the world, and in so doing addressing its wrongs and putting them right.

Trusting in God is not depending on God.
Are you sure you're not reading 'dependence' where others read faith, hope, trust, and so on?

It is fully using God.
God is not there to be used, any more than your neighbour is there to be used.

God needs us ...
God needs nor wants for anything.

... to help restore the mug/world ...
Or perhaps God, in love, continues to accord us the dignity according to the nature God created, a nature that stands on the frontier between the spiritual and the physical, a state from which, by our own actions, we fell, and a state in which, having found ourselves, He reaches out to restore us to our 'birthright', rather than, as we humans tend, to condemn us where we stand.

It's we who need restoring, not the world ...

We have spiritually grown up.
Not yet ... if we had, we would know where the faults lie ...
 
Thus the reflection of the Divine Light was in man, as in Christ, and see how loved and honoured He is!…
Yes, despite (what I contend to be) the “oops” in which material imperfection fell from God (not created by a Loving God), some of the Light, the divinity, survived and provides potential for spiritual growth. And yes to our being Christlike, Christ being a role model for us to better actualize our spiritual potential. I also like the author’s emphasis on “education,” something humankind has not been very serious about doing. Religious dogma got in the way of generic goodness and connectedness/spirituality/ wholeness. I believe that we the people CAN reach consensus about basic goodness and we could, if willing, democratically intentionally shape a good and spiritual culture that “educates” (educes, draws out) higher levels of personality and social integration
 
It's the "video game" that leaves me stumped. I don't accept life as a video game, at least at face value, nor understand any nuanced meaning you have for it, so I'm left at a loss.
In terms of the Ultimate Reality that we assume God to be experiencei
God is not a utility.
To us he is. I agree with Jaspers (existential philosopher) on that point. We have free will to use God for helping us make a better world/Creation or to choose not to use God. If you mean we shouldn’t manipulate God, I totally agree with you on that point. But why would we assume that all “use” is egoistic? Some utility is holy, of the divine light that managed to survive the mutation from the God State. We can use God to do Godly “work.” That seems to be a main theme of Christianity. Not the authoritarian (sin-emphasizing) strains of Christianity, but the truer forms of it.
 
It's the "video game" that leaves me stumped. I don't accept life as a video game, at least at face value, nor understand any nuanced meaning you have for it, so I'm left at a loss.
In terms of the Ultimate Reality that we assume God to be experiencei
Because it's a contradiction. If you're proposing a fallible God, you've got a lot of work to do, because that entity bears no relation to the deity spoken of the the Abrahamics, the Vedic texts, and so forth.
Even major religions can evolve in understanding. If all powerful contradicts all loving, best to choose the latter.
 
Even major religions can evolve in understanding. If all powerful contradicts all loving, best to choose the latter.
“The us we need to be
determines the god we need to see.”
Having said that, I do believe we need to ask God to help us determine the “us we need to be”
 
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