Looking for thoughtful Muslim dialogue partner

[DerekhHikmah]

Craz: Let us not forget that many of your people and other minoroties were also murdered in that holocaust.

Yes, I certainly don't forget that.

The last few day I spent with a dear friend who lived up in the north by the Syrian/Lebanese border.
He died a few weeks ago, but we did manage a final conversation a month previously where we remenised about growing up together and emmigrating to Israel.
He spent most of the last year underground due to the war there.
He was buried near Sfat within a view of the Lake KIinneret, which was his wish. He was a strong believer.
BTW Rabbi Luria, a renowned Kabbalist spent his last years in Sfat(Safed). (You mentioned an interest in Lurianic Kabbalah).

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I am glad you got to talk to him before he passed. And that is interesting about his burial place and Isaac Luria, I don't know where that is in Israel, but I am sure it is beautiful.

Well, initially I totally related the experience to the person of the Guru. I believed that he was giving me the experience. When I left the Guru, and still had the experience, I realised my experience was nothing to do with him. It is all inside me. So I could say that I became my own Guru, but not any god.

mhmm. I understand how after leaving the Guru and still having the experiences you conclude that he is not the source of them. I want to mention something you said before, you said "I didn't regard it as leaving the God of Israel. It was the same God." So, the Guru is in a sense claiming to reveal the same God but just deeper through certain experiences. When the Guru encouraged remembrance of God with every breath, what did you understand that 'God' to be? The God of Israel? A universal divine reality?
And now that you still practice, what are you remembering? I suppose I find myself wondering: what if the experience is not merely yours, just as it was not merely the Guru's? Perhaps the Guru was appropriating something that did not entirely belong to him.

 

[Craz]

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I am glad you got to talk to him before he passed. And that is interesting about his burial place and Isaac Luria, I don't know where that is in Israel, but I am sure it is beautiful.

Craz: It near Sea of Galilee (also known as Lake Kinneret or Lake Tiberias) in the Bible.

mhmm. I understand how after leaving the Guru and still having the experiences you conclude that he is not the source of them. I want to mention something you said before, you said "I didn't regard it as leaving the God of Israel. It was the same God." So, the Guru is in a sense claiming to reveal the same God but just deeper through certain experiences. When the Guru encouraged remembrance of God with every breath, what did you understand that 'God' to be? The God of Israel? A universal divine reality?

CRAZ: I regarded it as the one true universal, supreme God of all(everything).
It even made sense , at the time, because I had a Biblical background where Genesis talks about God breathing life into man.
I had also read in the Quaran that Allah was closer to man than his jugular vein.
So, it made sense to look for God in the breath.

And now that you still practice, what are you remembering?

CRAZ: I don't still practice following my breath. I only do it occassionally if I feel uncentered(mindfullness). I think many people practice this without any religious reference.

I suppose I find myself wondering: what if the experience is not merely yours, just as it was not merely the Guru's? Perhaps the Guru was appropriating something that did not entirely belong to him.

Exactly. He claimed that it was his knowledge excusively and only he could give it(to humanity).
To be more explicit, he said that he showed us how to look within ourselves by turning our senses inwards. The experience we have by doing that is the experience of knowledge, which only he imparts.
(Of course, in reality, nobody knows what anyone else experiences when they look within.)

When the knowledge was given(by means of 4 meditation techniques), we had to swear not to reveal it to anyone.
It turned out , as we discovered many years later, that these techniques were well know and were taught by many other teachers.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

I regarded it as the one true universal, supreme God of all(everything).

Ok, this explains why you didn't feel the need to just abandon Theistic beliefs at the beginning.

Exactly. He claimed that it was his knowledge excusively and only he could give it(to humanity).
To be more explicit, he said that he showed us how to look within ourselves by turning our senses inwards. The experience we have by doing that is the experience of knowledge, which only he imparts.

And I can see now how the experiences from following this Guru and the authority he must have carried got caught up in your theistic interpretation, and then I would suppose as your faith collapsed in that Guru, your faith in a theistic interpretation of all this also became weakened.

Suppose if someone else said they had the same experiences, but they concluded it pointed towards God and not just all in consciousness. How could it be determined which interpretation is closer to reality?

Why did your belief in a Universal God, shift to life itself, brahman, and consciousness?

 

[Craz]

And I can see now how the experiences from following this Guru and the authority he must have carried got caught up in your theistic interpretation, and then I would suppose as your faith collapsed in that Guru, your faith in a theistic interpretation of all this also became weakened.

Yes, everything in terms of faith and belief was invested in the Guru. Guru was the centre of everything and only he can reveal God.
He added these lines to Arti(a devotional song to Guru);
The Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and brings them all home to his Word
The Lord is the superior power in person,
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Suppose if someone else said they had the same experiences, but they concluded it pointed towards God and not just all in consciousness. How could it be determined which interpretation is closer to reality?

There were many other paths claiming to be the path to Truth/God. I just thought they were all fake and the people were deluded in that their experience was inferior.
During my years with the Guru, I did meet with members of other groups who were trying to convert /challenge me. I went to their meetings, but nothing came close to the experience of my own group. I saw them all as a weak copy of truth(as I believed). I actually felt sorry for them.

Why did your belief in a Universal God, shift to life itself, brahman, and consciousness?

Well, I no longer had a concept of God, a theistic power. The only thing that is everywhere is existence itself and it became clear to me that it is people who make things happen, (also, of course the forces in nature).

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Have you always been a Jehova Witness?

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Yes, everything in terms of faith and belief was invested in the Guru. Guru was the centre of everything and only he can reveal God.
He added these lines to Arti(a devotional song to Guru);
The Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and brings them all home to his Word
The Lord is the superior power in person,
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Suppose you never crossed paths with this Guru, do you think your faith in Judaism would eventually lose its grip on you as you got older?

There were many other paths claiming to be the path to Truth/God. I just thought they were all fake and the people were deluded in that their experience was inferior.
During my years with the Guru, I did meet with members of other groups who were trying to convert /challenge me. I went to their meetings, but nothing came close to the experience of my own group. I saw them all as a weak copy of truth(as I believed). I actually felt sorry for them.

It is interesting though, because this Guru did provide powerful experiences for you, however you came to the conclusion on your own that his claims about himself were not true. Was your judgement of these other groups based on inferior experiences alone?

Well, I no longer had a concept of God, a theistic power. The only thing that is everywhere is existence itself and it became clear to me that it is people who make things happen, (also, of course the forces in nature).

This is interesting. I want to come back to this.

Have you always been a Jehova Witness?

I got baptized when I was 16. When I was very little, my earliest memories, I would ask my mom to read me the story of David and Goliath, every night. She started telling me that she would only read that one if I first picked another Bible story. I have on my mom's side of my family some great, great uncle's and aunt's that were early Bible Students (before the name JW), late 19th century. My grandpa, again on my mom's side, turned 18 in the early 1940's during the war, he was not yet baptized, but he knew enough of the Bible and our beliefs and went to prison for contentious objector. He got baptized after he was released. I grew up not celebrating Christmas, or Easter, birthdays, etc. and I would ever year attend the Memorial (Nisan 14, Passover). So, I grew up having a sense of living between 2 worlds, as well as a knowledge of living during eschatological time.

 

[Craz]

Suppose you never crossed paths with this Guru, do you think your faith in Judaism would eventually lose its grip on you as you got older?

Well, I was already a secular Israeli when I met came into contact with the guru. Had I not come into contact, I doubt that I would have become religious again.

It is interesting though, because this Guru did provide powerful experiences for you, however you came to the conclusion on your own that his claims about himself were not true. Was your judgement of these other groups based on inferior experiences alone?

Yes, I believed he provided the experiences, but later on concluded that he did not. So, I decided these experiences are my own.
My judgement of those groups was made whilst I still belived in the guru. I never went back to any of those groups after leaving.

This is interesting. I want to come back to this.

I got baptized when I was 16. When I was very little, my earliest memories, I would ask my mom to read me the story of David and Goliath, every night. She started telling me that she would only read that one if I first picked another Bible story. I have on my mom's side of my family some great, great uncle's and aunt's that were early Bible Students (before the name JW), late 19th century. My grandpa, again on my mom's side, turned 18 in the early 1940's during the war, he was not yet baptized, but he knew enough of the Bible and our beliefs and went to prison for contentious objector. He got baptized after he was released. I grew up not celebrating Christmas, or Easter, birthdays, etc. and I would ever year attend the Memorial (Nisan 14, Passover). So, I grew up having a sense of living between 2 worlds, as well as a knowledge of living during eschatological time.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Well, I was already a secular Israeli when I met came into contact with the guru. Had I not come into contact, I doubt that I would have become religious again.




Yes, I believed he provided the experiences, but later on concluded that he did not. So, I decided these experiences are my own.
My judgement of those groups was made whilst I still belived in the guru. I never went back to any of those groups after leaving.



Thanks for sharing.

I am wondering about your story. You must be older now if you moved to Israel in the late 60s. So you have seen a tremendous amount of change in the world, and I imagine you have changed a lot as well.

You moved to Israel as a practicing Jew and believed to be living in significant even prophetic time. Did that give you a sense of purpose or greater calling? How did it affect the way you saw the world back then?

And you mentioned you were already a secular Jew by the time you met the Guru. How did that shift from practicing Jew to secular happen?

And once you became secular, how did you think about Zionism? Did your views on it change as your religious beliefs changed?

 

[Craz]

I am wondering about your story. You must be older now if you moved to Israel in the late 60s. So you have seen a tremendous amount of change in the world, and I imagine you have changed a lot as well.

You moved to Israel as a practicing Jew and believed to be living in significant even prophetic time.

Yes, I believed it to be a prophetic time. I became more religious after I came to Israel. Also growing up in London, I experienced a lot of anti-Jewish racism, which also fed my wanting to live in Israel.

Did that give you a sense of purpose or greater calling? How did it affect the way you saw the world back then?

I belived that Jews should now live in Israel since the birth of the new state, given by God.

And you mentioned you were already a secular Jew by the time you met the Guru. How did that shift from practicing Jew to secular happen?

A gradual lack of observance, until one day I hung up my kippa(skull cap). I really did hang up my kippa on the wall.(Taken from an old cowboy tradition when gunslingers or lawmen would hang up their guns on retirement.) It gave my friends a chuckle.

And once you became secular, how did you think about Zionism? Did your views on it change as your religious beliefs changed?

Well , I never realy related to the word Zionist/ism. The whole of the Torah was about Jews and the land. Also the prayers.
Growing up in England, I was not interested in any Zionist group, I was more attracted to a more religious group(Ezra).
I am an Israelophile based on the relationship I formed with the land and the various peoples during the years I lived there.


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Have you ever travelled abroad?

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Have you ever travelled abroad?

Yes, but not like you. I have only been in the Western Hemisphere, Mexico and parts of South America. I would like to visit the middle east, Israel, and parts of Europe. Not sure if I will be able to make that happen though.

It is interesting you had a gradual drifting away from Judaism, until you just hung it up, literally, and became secular. Was there something you felt was missing, or was it simply that the practices and beliefs gradually stopped feeling compelling?

It also sounds like you really resonated with the land and the people there. Is there a reason you found yourself back in England again?

It seems like when you were younger you were looking in Israel for some prophetic or religious fulfillment, but now you sound like it is being found in a more interior way. Looking back now, do you think you found what you were looking for when you were younger?

 

[Craz]

It is interesting you had a gradual drifting away from Judaism, until you just hung it up, literally, and became secular. Was there something you felt was missing, or was it simply that the practices and beliefs gradually stopped feeling compelling?

Craz:
I just realised that being religious just 'wasn't me' anymore. I just became another secular Israeli.I never thought about God at that time.
In fact I wonder what I would have answered to the question "Do you believe inGod"?. No one ever asked me.
I know I didn't feel any guilt. I had many friends who were religious and they didn't blink an eye at my change.

I think I put belief in God on the back burner, for about 2 years, until I joined the Guru. Then God made sense.

It also sounds like you really resonated with the land and the people there. Is there a reason you found yourself back in England again?

Craz: I left Israel in order to follow the Guru around the world. Don't forget I believed he was God-incarnate. Desire to be near him overrode everything including family, friends, country etc. It was really intense. Many people even gave up their addictions as drugs & alcoholl were forbidden. That's how strong it felt.
I eventually joined an ashram in England and stayed. I left after 23 years into a strange new/old world.
It has not been easy to reclaim the people and things I loved that I gave up for the Guru. Some things cannot be undone.

It seems like when you were younger you were looking in Israel for some prophetic or religious fulfillment, but now you sound like it is being found in a more interior way. Looking back now, do you think you found what you were looking for when you were younger?

Craz: All I can say is that I don't find myself looking for anything in particular. I am trying to catch up on my science education, particularly sub-atomic physics. My education was in Newtonian physics and touched on Einstein, but all this sits on the sub-atomic level. I've started to read some of Richard Feyman's lectures on physics.
Being involved with the guru for so many years made my brain lazy. I only ever read mostly spiritual books/scriptures or transcripts of the guru's speeches, during those years.


I hope you get to go go travelling.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

It has not been easy to reclaim the people and things I loved that I gave up for the Guru. Some things cannot be undone.

I'm sorry to hear that, 23 years is a long time, I can't imagine how it would be to go back into the world again after that long.

I am trying to catch up on my science education, particularly sub-atomic physics. My education was in Newtonian physics and touched on Einstein, but all this sits on the sub-atomic level. I've started to read some of Richard Feyman's lectures on physics.

Why subatomic physics in particular? What is it that draws you to it? You have had an interesting life story, and I am wondering if there is something underneath it all that is driving you, from moving to Israel and prophecy, to the Guru, and now to science. Do you think the physics is also part of that same curiosity?

 

[Craz]

I'm sorry to hear that, 23 years is a long time, I can't imagine how it would be to go back into the world again after that long.

It was peculiar to have no frame of reference. On the other hand, having very few attachments like posessions, money etc has made it easier to live in this 'new' world.
I wonder how you, as a lifetime Jehova's Witness, would fare in the world if you ever lost faith.(Rhetorical question)

Why subatomic physics in particular?

I did a maths degree and was particularly interested in applied maths, i.e, how it applied to the real, physical world. I enjoyed solving problems in both static and dynamics using mosly Newtonian mechanics.
I touched upon Einstien at the end of my course and never really took on board that there is a subatomic level that does not abide by Newtonian laws. After all this level supports our physical lelvel.
At the end of my degree, my life took a direction far away from furthering my knowledge. So, now, I suppose, I am trying to pickup where I left off.

What is it that draws you to it?

Knowledge of how things/life works.

You have had an interesting life story, and I am wondering if there is something underneath it all that is driving you, from moving to Israel and prophecy, to the Guru, and now to science.

The guru dissed 'worldly' knowledge, it was a distraction from 'Truth'.
So I closed my mind to anything but the path he gave. This included, the dampening of one's curiosity about anything else.

Do you think the physics is also part of that same curiosity?

At high school, I was only really interested in applied maths. It was like a world map of how things worked. Had I not got involved with Israel/religion/guru, I would have probably done a post graduate degree in fluid dynamics and become an academic/lecturer.

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[DerekhHikmah]

I wonder how you, as a lifetime Jehova's Witness, would fare in the world if you ever lost faith.(Rhetorical question)

It would completely flip my world upside down. I would have a hard time, to say the least. That is why your story touched me so deeply. For someone like me, so much of my life and identity is tied up in my faith.

I touched upon Einstien at the end of my course and never really took on board that there is a subatomic level that does not abide by Newtonian laws. After all this level supports our physical level.

Again, I am not a physicist, but am I understanding correctly that what fascinates you is that classical mechanics explains the objects and motions we observe, while at the level of subatomic particles things seem to behave in a much less deterministic manner?

At the end of my degree, my life took a direction far away from furthering my knowledge. So, now, I suppose, I am trying to pickup where I left off.

Knowledge of how things/life works.

Yeah, that makes sense, you want to understand reality and how things work. I find that in myself as well.

The guru dissed 'worldly' knowledge, it was a distraction from 'Truth'.
So I closed my mind to anything but the path he gave. This included, the dampening of one's curiosity about anything else.

That is sad to me because curiosity seems like one of the enjoyable parts of life. You remind me of Solomon: "I directed my heart to know and to explore and to search for wisdom and the reason behind things" (Ecclesiastes 7:25). And Psalm 111:2 says: "The works of Jehovah are great; They are studied by all those finding pleasure in them."

Had I not got involved with Israel/religion/guru, I would have probably done a post graduate degree in fluid dynamics and become an academic/lecturer.

Your life has certainly seen some unexpected twists and turns. It sounds like you are picking up where you left off years ago. Out of curiosity, what is it about subatomic physics that fascinates? Is it the mathematics, or the fact that it seems to sit underneath the ordinary world we experience?

Are you familiar with the physicist Wolfgang Pauli? He was one of the founders of quantum mechanics but later became interested in some unusual questions about meaning, dreams and symbols. The psychologist Carl Jung worked with him, and they came up with an essay trying to explore the relation between meaning and coincidence it's called, Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle. I don't know whether you would enjoy that sort of thing, but it sits at an interesting meeting point between psychology and physics, our conversation made me think of it.

 

[Craz]

@DerekhHikmah

I wonder how you, as a lifetime Jehova's Witness, would fare in the world if you ever lost faith.(Rhetorical question)

DerekhHikmah:
It would completely flip my world upside down. I would have a hard time, to say the least. That is why your story touched me so deeply. For someone like me, so much of my life and identity is tied up in my faith.

Craz:
Yes, I have met many Jehova Witnesses in my life, they all show an extreme dedication and certitude to their living as Christians.
During my years as a lecturer I can remember 2 students who were Jehova Witnesses, and they showed excellence in their work also they worked well with others.
I had one class with 7 students, 1 Jew, 1 Muslim, 1 Jehova Witness and 4 Church of England. They were all devout in their religions, worked in groups and never argued. They were a pleasure to teach.

I touched upon Einstien at the end of my course and never really took on board that there is a subatomic level that does not abide by Newtonian laws. After all this level supports our physical level.

DerekhHikmah:
Again, I am not a physicist, but am I understanding correctly that what fascinates you is that classical mechanics explains the objects and motions we observe, while at the level of subatomic particles things seem to behave in a much less deterministic manner?

Craz:
Back then, the thing that caught my fascination was that a moving particle appears to increase it's mass as it's velocity increase, becoming infinite when it reaches the speed of light. Presently I am trying to get myhead around the mathematics related to this.(It appears in Einsteins's special theory of relativity.)
I am also reading about subatomic particles. There are a whole maze of them going around each other attracting, repelling...a bit like the human race
It all seems a big mish-mash to me, however the world as we know is supported by said mish-mash.
So, I haven't gotten very far is this endevour.

The guru dissed 'worldly' knowledge, it was a distraction from 'Truth'.
So I closed my mind to anything but the path he gave. This included, the dampening of one's curiosity about anything else.

DerekhHikmah:
That is sad to me because curiosity seems like one of the enjoyable parts of life. You remind me of Solomon: "I directed my heart to know and to explore and to search for wisdom and the reason behind things" (Ecclesiastes 7:25). And Psalm 111:2 says: "The works of Jehovah are great; They are studied by all those finding pleasure in them."

I am glad Solomon agrees with me.


DerekhHikmah:
Are you familiar with the physicist Wolfgang Pauli? He was one of the founders of quantum mechanics but later became interested in some unusual questions about meaning, dreams and symbols. The psychologist Carl Jung worked with him, and they came up with an essay trying to explore the relation between meaning and coincidence it's called, Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle. I don't know whether you would enjoy that sort of thing, but it sits at an interesting meeting point between psychology and physics, our conversation made me think of it.

Craz:
I had not heard of him and just read his Wikipedia* entry. Thanks. It mentions his work with Jung (Re:archetypes and synchronicity). Yes, it shows that science and psychology are not mutually exclusive. Jung certainly get around, I am reading The Secret of the Golden Flower with Jung's commentary. "Carl Jung regarded the text as a bridge between Eastern meditative practices and Western analytical psychology."
Both interesting characters,to say the least.

The last paragraph of the Wiki entry Wolfgang Pauli - Wikipedia )

Pauli is considered to have been a deist and a mystic. In No Time to Be Brief: A Scientific Biography of Wolfgang Pauli, he is quoted as writing to science historian Shmuel Sambursky, "In opposition to the monotheist religions – but in unison with the mysticism of all peoples, including the Jewish mysticism – I believe that the ultimate reality is not personal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yeah, that makes sense, you want to understand reality and how things work. I find that in myself as well..

@Craz
Same here .. I did a degree in Combined science.

I am particularly fascinated by God's omniscience..
i.e. God is aware of the past, present and future of all.

How I understand this, is that God is the Creator of the universe (a space-time continuum),
and so is outside of it.
This means that what we perceive as "hasn't happened yet" is not the perception of God.
I envisage it as if our spacetime is in a bottle, and God can see all.

 

[Craz]

@Craz
Same here .. I did a degree in Combined science.

I am particularly fascinated by God's omniscience..
i.e. God is aware of the past, present and future of all.

How I understand this, is that God is the Creator of the universe (a space-time continuum),
and so is outside of it.
This means that what we perceive as "hasn't happened yet" is not the perception of God.
I envisage it as if our spacetime is in a bottle, and God can see all.

@muhammad_isa

So did you always believe in your God's omniscience or only after you accepted Islam?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So did you always believe in your God's omniscience or only after you accepted Islam?

I don't know really .. I suppose I never thought about it much before my 20's.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

How I understand this, is that God is the Creator of the universe (a space-time continuum),
and so is outside of it.

Yes, this is an important point that this discussion may start circling around. In Scripture, and also in the Qur'an from what I understand, there is a clear Creator/creation distinction. God is not simply one being inside the universe, nor one force within the space-time continuum. He transcends creation while sustaining it.

Yet creation bears within it signs, or 'ayat,' which, as Paul mentions, declare God's glory, "For his [God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation" Romans 1:20. So, creation does disclose and bear witness to God's attributes, wisdom, beauty, power, order, mercy, etc. but perhaps requires a certain disposition or relationship for those qualities to become perceptible and appreciated by us. The beauty, intelligibility, and regularity we appreciate in creation are themselves a kind of witness, pointing beyond themselves toward their Creator.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Yes, I have met many Jehova Witnesses in my life, they all show an extreme dedication and certitude to their living as Christians.
During my years as a lecturer I can remember 2 students who were Jehova Witnesses, and they showed excellence in their work also they worked well with others.
I had one class with 7 students, 1 Jew, 1 Muslim, 1 Jehova Witness and 4 Church of England. They were all devout in their religions, worked in groups and never argued. They were a pleasure to teach.

Thank you, that is very nice.

Yes, it shows that science and psychology are not mutually exclusive. Jung certainly get around, I am reading The Secret of the Golden Flower with Jung's commentary. "Carl Jung regarded the text as a bridge between Eastern meditative practices and Western analytical psychology."

Yes, with regard to science and psychology, Yes Jung first got me thinking in terms that the ground of reality is actually, image/imaginal, and symbolic before it is embodied and material.

And Jung had a number of essays on eastern spirituality that were very informative to me. He is often clear about writing from a "westerner" perspective and yet stays very grounded in my reading. I read that commentary of his a while ago, but I have not read the actual treatise itself, but I think I understand what Jung takes to be the intention of the text, which is profound to say the least. Do you feel he opens up the text and initiates the reader into it, or do you think he ends up psychologizing something that was originally intended as a spiritual discipline?

 

[Craz]

@Craz
Same here .. I did a degree in Combined science.

I am particularly fascinated by God's omniscience..
i.e. God is aware of the past, present and future of all.

How I understand this, is that God is the Creator of the universe (a space-time continuum),
and so is outside of it.
This means that what we perceive as "hasn't happened yet" is not the perception of God.
I envisage it as if our spacetime is in a bottle, and God can see all.

(Thanks for the reminder) That is exactly how it was explained to me at grammar school(in my early teens) when I asked the teacher how God knows past, present and future. I expect that contributed to my early conception of God. At that age , I never questioned whether there was one or many or no gods. I just accepted there was one.
I didn't question my beliefs til later on in life.