Question about Jesus and John

Actually Bandit the virgin birth doesn't bother me. It is only an observation I made. I believe anything as spectacular as a virgin birth would have been recorded by author of Mark and Paul would have commeneted on it also. If you believe in it that's cool.

I still do not follow the logic of yourself and Basstian. What do you say satan is behind. What counterfeit are we speaking of here? In what way is he deceiving us? Be specific please.
 
didymus said:
Actually Bandit the virgin birth doesn't bother me. It is only an observation I made. I believe anything as spectacular as a virgin birth would have been recorded by author of Mark and Paul would have commeneted on it also. If you believe in it that's cool.

I still do not follow the logic of yourself and Basstian. What do you say satan is behind. What counterfeit are we speaking of here? In what way is he deceiving us? Be specific please.
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i cant explain it. Have you ever been lied to? have you ever been given a counterfeit bill? Satan is a liar (the father of lies) and deciever and can persuade and influence us to believe a lie, wether it be in gossip, mischief, books, accusations, that is what I mean.

i dont see the vigin birth as anything spectacular or so important as religion has made it out to be. there is a reason for it why it happened that way. that is most likely why it was not written very much about. the death burial and resurrection is spectacular. the life of Jesus is spectacular to me.
the birth of Jesus was a MEANS OF ARRIVAL not a magic trick. I think it was supposed to be quiet otherwise Herod would have found Jesus when he passed the decree to kill the males 2 and under. The same thing with John the baptist.
Like I am so sure Mary would go around broadcasting something like that. I think Mary and Elizabeth were brought together at that time because they both experienced a similiar thing, sort of like a witness or edification to both of them.
I dont believe the bible lies.
 
your satan theory is still fuzzy to me. why can't you explain it better? sure i've been lied to. how does that tie in to this thread?

How can you consider a resurrection spectacular and not a virgin birth? This to me is equally spectacular. I think you are right that Mary may have kept quiet about it. Mark was written 20-30 years after Jesus died. Paul's letters were written 20 years later. If they were trying to bring people to christ they would have mentioned his virgin birth because that is a detail you wouldn't leave out.
 
because the birth did not bring salvation. the cross did.

you will just have to see satan however you see it. if you cannot understand he is the father of lies, then i dont know what else to tell you.

this is what Paul said.
Gal4:4"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law."
 
actually I don't see satan in any of this. That is why I keep asking why you refer to him. How does satan apply to anything we are discussing?
 
i am not going to debate with gnostics. then you wonder why christians dont want to talk with gnostics. they dont know when to stop.
 
Bandit, i'm not gnostic. All I did was ask you to clarify what you were saying because it was unclear to me. How do you see this as going on and on?
 
Ok, i thought about it. are you proposing that satan is lying to me through the Bible? You said satan knows scripture better than us( or maybe basstian said it)my point is that my observation was based off books in the bible. no other source was involved. this is why i am confused by your statements.
 
the books that you mention outside of the bible and there authors are indeed gnostic. I spent plenty of time on an ALL gnostic board to know how they operate with the scriptures. I know every song and dance.

I asked a question who do you say that Jesus is. Your answer was the answer of the gnostics and mystics.
The bible does not lie. Satan Lies. and some of the shiny books and authors you read and have mentioned, IMHO are that of the devil and influence many to disreguard what the bible is really about.
I dont know how deep you are into it, but deep enough that I dont think I can help you out of it. No matter how much we discuss and dance around.

The death, burial and resurrection and obedience to the will of God, of the man Jesus is what brought us salvation and can deliver us from death. Not his birth and miracles and healings or some cosmic elctromagnetic force .

because the birth did not bring salvation. the cross did.
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p.s.
I love you like a brother Didymus, because I know you were brought up in the truth of the bible and I am concerned for the direction you have taken, but I know that I cannot stop you and I will not try to stop you but I cannot walk with you in the same spirit because I feel it is not the right spirit.
You have to do what you have to do. That is all I can say.
 
Wait Wait Wait LOL PEACE

My comments about Counterfeits Got that Started Let me be Very Clear.

From the Begining of cultures Like say ancient Babylon stories and myths have been created that look and sound very much like what came to pass in the Birth of Christ.
Look at the story of Tammuz and there are striking similiarities. I do believe Satan has spawned many false gods and even false messiahs in an efort to confuse and decieve mankind. He knew well of Gods plans and understood the prophecies as well or better than we can today.

I wasnt trying to draw away from the subject but rather shed light on a possible "Why" there are doves,godmen and even resurections in ancient cultures. These are the counterfeits I was eluding to sorry to have caused a fuss.

I wasnt saying any individual had been lied to but rather Satan in his purpose has been trying to deceive the whole world.
I hope this explains it better because I wasnt pointing at anybodies beliefs but rather at the deceptions we see in history.
 
Bandit, honestly i am not that involved in gnosticism. yes i have read quite a bit of it and enough to say i don't subscribe to all of it. some of it i do believe. i think there are many spiritual truths in gnostic writings.

The satan thing got really out of control. Yes, i made a comment earlier from the gospel of thomas. but my main point was the virgin birth. i do not believe that satan is influencing me at all. the observation i made about mary and jesus was from the bible, no other source was involved. i read mark and paul's letter and noticed there was no mention of it. that is not a satanic attack brother that is simply reading and interpreting what i read.
 
go with what you feel is best Didymus but I know some of those books are where you get your questions and doubts from about the bible. We have to be careful with what we read and watch and listen to. They leave us with influences that can make us feel all is ok but it might not be all ok.

I am sticking with bible, the Lord Jesus, the one true God and a little bit of faith all the way. That way I know there is no counterfeit. You can come with me if you want to.:)
 
Paul did mention the birth of Jesus, but you are missing it. Jesus was MADE.

Gal4:4"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law."
 
dear didymus,
u r intelligent....
ur question about john and jesus
yes john no that he is a prophet of god but he was searchig for the final prophet of god....so he asked jesus if he is the coming(the last prophet) or we wait another?
the last prophet was mohammad (pbuh)
and all prophet of god know him, he is the mercy to the world
john know two prophets coming
one with miracles of healing,rising up deads>>>>this is jesus
onother with the holy quran>>>>>he is mohammed
so when they asked jesus he replied that to tell john about miracles
even jews no that there is prophet after christ so they asked john"[21] And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."
i see that my reply is clear
"Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." (quran 3 :81)
 
Ok, Bandit I'll say this peacefully to you. No gnostic text that i read had any influence on my statement of the virgin birth. Zilch. I got it from the Bible and only the Bible. Paul mentions Jesus' birth but did not say any such thing of a virgin birth. Neither did Mark. Case and point.

Another observation getting back to John and Jesus. We were discussing whether or not John and anybody else saw the dove or heard the voice of God. In Matthew and Mark you can't tell one way or the other. Maybe just Jesus saw it or maybe they both did. Later in the gospel John certainly had doubt as to whether Jesus was the one or not. Well I found in John, chapter 1 verse 29-34.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him, and said,"behold the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom i speak, after me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me. I did not know him, but that he should be revealed to israel, there fore i came baptizing in water. and John bore witness saying,"I saw the spirit descend on him like a dove, and he remained upon him, i did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me'upon whom you see the spirit descending and remaining on him, this is he who baptizes with the holy spirit, and i have seen and testified that this is the son of god"

John specifically states he saw the dove and heard God's voice from above. This is not in line with the other gospels of Luke and Matthew. So either he saw the dove and heard the voice of God and knew jesus was the one or he didn't. If John is accurate then Luke and Mathew are not or vice versa.

My opinion is that the legend of Jesus grew and grew and eventually he was turned into a god. By the time John was written I think the majority of christians were gentiles and were receiving information about Jesus that was handed down for 4 or more generations.
John was the last gospel written, perhaps in 100-110ad. This 70-80 years after Christ died. Surely Jesus was sent by God, he was holy beyond measure and I don't dispute that but I find discrepancies in the Bible that can't be overlloked. To me my belief in Jesus and God are not dependent on the accuracy of the Bible.
 
correction, i referred to mark regarding john and jesus, i meant to say matthew and luke.
 
John was the last gospel written, perhaps in 100-110ad. This 70-80 years after Christ died. Surely Jesus was sent by God, he was holy beyond measure and I don't dispute that but I find discrepancies in the Bible that can't be overlloked. To me my belief in Jesus and God are not dependent on the accuracy of the Bible.
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this is why i do not discuss bible with people who do not believe it all, which explains why you see things the way you do because you allow others to persuade you in that direction... and why i see the bible different. so there is really no point to you and i discussing the bible, which is what i have been trying to say all along.

thanks, but i wont be adding any more to this.
 
ooops Bandit you peaked.

I thought you weren't coming back. Nobody has persuaded me one way or the other. Nobody! How many times have i told you that i got what i got from reading the bible. anything i say is from reading the text myself and forming an opinion. anybody with eyes can read luke, matthew and john and see the confliction of statements.
 
didymus said:
I think that John, being Jesus' cousin probably would have heard through the family that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and that Mary and John's mother elizabeth had that profound experience together where she felt the jumping in the womb. This combined with the experience Jesus had at the river Jordan would have been enough that John would have no need to question anything about jesus' messiahship. So this strikes me as very strange and even suspicious that John would ask.

Jesus' response was that people were being healed . He did not say he was the one to come.
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Yes, but is is also written that a prophet is welcomed everywhere, but in his home town. Kind of hard to accept that your own kin is ...God? I suspect it would take a bit of getting used to.

v/r

Q
 
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