Understanding the Trinity

Easy everyone...this is a discussion, not a free for all. Perhaps starting with the phrase "I think" or "In my opinion"...will difuse this discussion a bit.

Speak easy, the ears like soft sounds. ;)

Or biblically speaking "A gentle word turns away wrath..."

v/r

Q
 
My point in posting the entirety of the quotes he's posting is because I know that he has not read them.. Hes getting them from the handbook "Should You Believe in the Trinity" I also know from several ex-JW's that they are not allowed to read anything that negates their teachings because its considered apostate. I do not believe he is even reading any of the posts.. I believe that he sees a topic pretty much and finds the literature that relates to the topic and cuts and pastes it. He said that I am using biased sources that are anti-JW when in fact im actually reading the sources that HE is using.. some which are also Anti-JW.
 
mee said:
maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled
Frederick W. Franz: Main translator. Took liberal arts sequence at University of Cincinnati; 21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin. Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year; course titled "The New Testament--A course in grammar and translation." Left in spring of 1914 before completing junior year. Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic. Entered Brooklyn headquarters facility of Watchtower Society in 1920. "What a blessing it was to study Bible Greek under Professor Arthur Kensella! Under Dr. Joseph Harry, an author of some Greek works, I also studied the classical Greek. I knew that if I wanted to become a Presbyterian clergyman, I had to have a command of Bible Greek. So I furiously applied myself and got passing grades" (The Watchtower, May 1, 1987, p. 24). Franz only took one 2-hour credit class of "Bible Greek" but 21 hours of classical Greek. According to the course catalog of 1911, Arthur Kensella was not a professor of Greek, as Franz wrote, but an "instructor in Greek." Kensella did not have a Ph.D. and he therefore taught entry-level courses. Hmm seems misleading looking at the quote he made in the watchtower.

Nathan H. Knorr: No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1923; 3rd president of WTS from 1942 to 1977.

Milton G. Henschel: No training in biblical languages. Private secretary and traveling companion to N. H. Knorr from late 1940s until early 1970s. 4th president of WTS from 1992 to 2000.

Albert D. Schroeder: No training in biblical languages. Took 3 years of mechanical engineering, unspecified language courses in college, dropped out in 1932 and soon entered Brooklyn headquarters. Registrar of "Gilead School" from 1942 to 1959.

Karl Klein: No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1925; member of Writing Dept. since 1950.

George D. Gangas: No training in biblical languages. Greek-speaking Turkish national, entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1928 as a Greek translator from English to modern Greek publications.

These were the translators of the as you put it correct version when Franz was the only man capable of doing translation work.


Franz ‘freely admitted his presuppositions’. These were set by previous Watchtower doctrines, some of which he himself had a hand in formulating. As "head theologian" and vice-president of the Watchtower Society, Franz was required to ensure that his work was consistent with existing doctrine.


When reading the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation it is obvious that they have published a Bible for the purpose of teaching their own doctrine. They have done this by changing the meaning of the most authentic ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The New World Translation has failed the test that says that the best English Bible translation will tell us the exact thoughts of the original writers of the Hebrew and Greek portions of the Bible in a way that is easily understood. The New World Translation does not accurately translate what the New Testament writers said about Jesus.
 
Kind Regards, mee!
mee said:
maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled
I am curious, I thought JW's were people too? Is it possible JW's can be mislead?
 
JWs are not people, they are JWs.

JWs can not be misled because the NWT is the word of Jehovah and Jehovah does not mislead his people.
 
Quahom1 said:
I'm just thinking out loud here.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the earth was a shapeless, chaotic mass, with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors."

Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, ..."

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image...male and female he created them."

Genesis 3:8 "Now the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day...

Duality, then singularity, with man becoming a duality. God as spirit, and God with physical form, and moving as a man would...

Matthew 3:16 "After his baptism, as soon as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God coming down in the form of a dove."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:2 "He was in the beginning with God."

John 1:3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made."

John 1:4 "In Him was Life, and the life was the light of men."

Again, there is that Duality, plus a decree that Jesus?...created the Universe?

John 8:12 "Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying "I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

We read of the Father and the Word, with the Holy Spirit Hovering.

We See the Son, the Holy Spirit and hear the Voice of the Father at the baptism of Jesus (all at the same time).

Jesus is called and calls Himself the Light, the Word, the way. John calls Jesus the Word being not only God, but being with God.

Perhaps the Trinity can be explained as the Father being the Mind (consciousness of God), the Son being God in the Flesh, and the Spirit of God as, well, the breath of God.

Man is made in the image and likeness of God, and we have a mind, body and spirit, that makes us, us! Our minds and spirits are in our bodies, and our bodies are with our minds and spirits.

hmmm

v/r

Q
Perhaps this response of mine would be better placed in the comparative studies area, but the thread is here. Though i was raised nominally Christian, spent most of my years studying Buddhism and only in recent years have I given much thought to traditional Christian subjects. now when i do i tend to see many intersections between buddhist thought and Christian. Such is the case here and your notion of the Trinity as Mind, Flesh, and Spirit of God, got me to thinking of a similar notion in buddhism. They have the concept of the trikaya: in buddhist thought every buddha manifests 3 "bodies," the dharmakaya, the sambhogakaya, and the nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya is the "body of Truth," the supra-ontological, formless Ultimate Reality beyond any conceptual descriptions with their inherent limitations-i.e., the "Father?" The sambhogakaya is the "reward body," the body of pure light and bliss visible only to those of high spiritual attainment and are the energies of enlightenment; i.e., the "Holy Spirit?" The nirmanakaya is the body of transformation, ("on this level the Buddha has the power to assume any appearance for enlightening and liberating sentient beings"); i.e., the "Son?"

Interesting, huh?:) Have a good one, Earl
 
earl said:
Perhaps this response of mine would be better placed in the comparative studies area, but the thread is here. Though i was raised nominally Christian, spent most of my years studying Buddhism and only in recent years have I given much thought to traditional Christian subjects. now when i do i tend to see many intersections between buddhist thought and Christian. Such is the case here and your notion of the Trinity as Mind, Flesh, and Spirit of God, got me to thinking of a similar notion in buddhism. They have the concept of the trikaya: in buddhist thought every buddha manifests 3 "bodies," the dharmakaya, the sambhogakaya, and the nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya is the "body of Truth," the supra-ontological, formless Ultimate Reality beyond any conceptual descriptions with their inherent limitations-i.e., the "Father?" The sambhogakaya is the "reward body," the body of pure light and bliss visible only to those of high spiritual attainment and are the energies of enlightenment; i.e., the "Holy Spirit?" The nirmanakaya is the body of transformation, ("on this level the Buddha has the power to assume any appearance for enlightening and liberating sentient beings"); i.e., the "Son?"

Interesting, huh?:) Have a good one, Earl

Lovely analogy, Earl. :) I wonder how the Vatican feels about that?
 
The Trinity doctrine, is borrowed from pagan sources and was developed in its present form centuries after Bible writing was completed .so many people are misled to believe that it is bible based when it is not .

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her,(Babylon the great) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues(revelation 18;4) oh dear christendom claims to represent the God of the bible but really is full of babylonish teachings . no wonder Jehovah and Jesus are going to destroy the world empire of false religion .(revelation 18;21) all the religions of the world have babylonish teachings attached to them, but never mind , Jehovah has it all in control ,soon false religion will be gone,and only pure teaching will remain.(rev 19;1-3)and we still have time to get out of her.but not for long.

Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger(zephaniah2;2-3)



 
mee said:
The Trinity doctrine, is borrowed from pagan sources and was developed in its present form centuries after Bible writing was completed .so many people are misled to believe that it is bible based when it is not .

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her,(Babylon the great) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues(revelation 18;4) oh dear christendom claims to represent the God of the bible but really is full of babylonish teachings . no wonder Jehovah and Jesus are going to destroy the world empire of false religion .(revelation 18;21) all the religions of the world have babylonish teachings attached to them, but never mind , Jehovah has it all in control ,soon false religion will be gone,and only pure teaching will remain.(rev 19;1-3)and we still have time to get out of her.but not for long.

Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger(zephaniah2;2-3)



This thread is set up for those who wish to understand the Trinity, not for those who don't accept it. If you do not believe in the trinity...fine. Don't post here.

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
This thread is set up for those who wish to understand the Trinity, not for those who don't accept it.
And so the title says... perhaps somebody missed it...
Quahom1 said:
If you do not believe in the trinity...fine. Don't post here.
SSSSSSTRIIIKE!!
 
mee said:
The Trinity doctrine, is borrowed from pagan sources and was developed in its present form centuries after Bible writing was completed .so many people are misled to believe that it is bible based when it is not .

All religions today are of pagan origin in some form. Understanding God is a progressive activity - although not with some...
 
truthseeker said:
All religions today are of pagan origin in some form. Understanding God is a progressive activity - although not with some...

Truthseeker, we are quite on the same page today.

peace,
lunamoth
 
mee said:
The Trinity doctrine, is borrowed from pagan sources and was developed in its present form centuries after Bible writing was completed .so many people are misled to believe that it is bible based when it is not .

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her,(Babylon the great) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues(revelation 18;4) oh dear christendom claims to represent the God of the bible but really is full of babylonish teachings . no wonder Jehovah and Jesus are going to destroy the world empire of false religion .(revelation 18;21) all the religions of the world have babylonish teachings attached to them, but never mind , Jehovah has it all in control ,soon false religion will be gone,and only pure teaching will remain.(rev 19;1-3)and we still have time to get out of her.but not for long.

Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger(zephaniah2;2-3)



Interesting since I have posted scripture where it shows the trinity as being in the bible..

(Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology ) source of the post above.

The very same page that JW's use to say that the Christian Trinity was borrowed from the Babylonians also decribes this triad almost exactly like JW's view Jehovah! "

  1. He [Anu] was god in the highest sense, the supreme god. All the other deities honoured him as their 'father', that is to say, their chief." Just as the lesser Babylonian gods called Anu as their "Father", so too JW's and Trinitarians, even all Christians believe that Jehovah is called "Father" by Jesus. But it gets worse for JW's! Just as the Babylonians view Anu the supreme God over lesser gods. JW's view Jehovah as the supreme God who over all other lesser Gods (elohim include angels, Jesus, Devil, men etc)
JW's have not comprehended that if they had the Governing Body themselves sit down and explain their view of God (Father-true God, Son-a created demi-god and Holy Spirit-the force or energy of God) to the ancient Babylonians they would immediately label JW's as a religion who believe in a triad concept of God very similar to themselves. (Trinitarians) Stated differently, from the perspective of ancient Babylonian there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE between the Trinitarian view of God and the Arian (JW's) view of God. Ancient Babylonians would label both views as POLYTHEISM! The Governing Body really blundered when they chose this route!

But the same source identifies all kinds of similarities between Christianity and pagan beliefs, like the Lord's supper. Similarities don't mean that Christians borrowed from the pagans.

JW's project the false impression that ancient Babylonians would not label the Watchtower version of God as a Triad. (Father-true God, Son-a created demi-god and Holy Spirit-the force or energy of God)
JW's deliberately misrepresent the fact that the Watchtower view of God is CLOSER to Babylonian polytheism than Trinitarians! Just as the Babylonians view Anu the supreme God over lesser gods. JW's view Jehovah as the supreme God who over all other lesser Gods (Elohim include angels, Jesus, Devil, men etc) Trinitarians totally reject the Watchtower teaching that Jesus is a demi-god.

Further they create a false dilemma by thinking that if there are similarities between Christianity and paganism, that the Christian belief must not be the result of divine revelation, but borrowed from the pagans.

JW's failed to quote that there were all kinds of grouping combinations down through history, even today! The pagans had twinities, trinities quadities etc right up to 30 millionities! It is scholastic dishonesty to arbitrarily select a trinity out of an endless combination of pagan Gods.

**Perhaps the biggest deception of all is that JW's mislead the public into thinking that the Babylonians were Trinitarians of any sort! In fact they worshipped many God's that were grouped in many logical manners like sky, earth and water.**

 
truthseeker said:
This forum is the best thing since NIV.
Try not to rely on NIV or this Forum too much ;)
NIV shares some mistranslations/confuddled text with KJV, although it is greatly better. When I deeply study a piece of text, I usually compare it across 3-7 Bibles. KJV, NIV, ESV, Peshitta, Hebrew, Greek, NKJV....you get the idea. I have too much free time :p

-- Adriyel
 
Understanding soul in relation to spirit and flesh, what is the binding force of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
 
truthseeker said:
And so the title says... perhaps somebody missed it...

SSSSSSTRIIIKE!!

Actually a "Home Run", unless that is that the gospels and Epistles have no merit...John, 1 John, Matthew, and the Letters to the churches...

v/r

Q
 
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