Do angels have free will?

[lunamoth]

I voted no. I think for humans our last moment of free will is when we die and God asks us, "well, do you want to come in?" And I think He asks this question of everyone, regardless of what we believed or did in our lifetime. Heaven or hell might be our reflection on the realization that we have been asked this question.

I don't have a Biblical reason for this. Good thing I'm posting in the Alternative Section!

 

[path_of_one]

Revelation 8:10 reminds me of astronomical predictions. They see the earth's magnetic field is slowly weakening. This magnetic field is the only thing that stops us from getting pelted by space dust and meteors. They aren't sure when the magnetic field will die but they say it is not a matter of if it will die, but when it will die. Could be 100 years could be 1000.

I'm sure that space dust or meteors could look like a great star colliding with the earth.

The earth's magnetic field is currently weakening, but that has happened before and it did not result in the end of the world. It happens when a polar shift occurs- when North becomes South and South, North. There was an excellent special on PBS a while back on this. The magnetic field does not completely go away, it simply weakens for a while while the magnetic poles shift around. The poles go kind of crazy for a while during this transition, sometimes creating as many as six "North" poles that are all relatively weak. To the best of our scientific knowledge and based on studies of the last time this happened, it isn't as scary as it seems. Travel that depends on the poles being stable, such as by ship and airplane, will be difficult. Also, radiation increases a bit so people need to be aware of skin cancer more and put on more sunscreen. But even the radiation is not so extreme that it caused great depopulation in the past. Pretty much it is just a long-term cycle that the earth goes through every now and then. Current estimates are that it will happen in the next hundred years or so, and then the poles will be reversed for a long time.

 

[madina]

Man is created from clay. Jinn (spirits) from the smokeless flame and Angels from a divine light called Nur. Both men and Jinn have been given free will. Some believe that satan was a fallen angel. Satan is from the jinn, and the jinn existed before the creation of man. Holy Quran (18:50).

Satan was among the assembly of angels at the time of the creation of Adam. God commanded that all prostrate before Adam and Satan refused as he was arrogant and thought himself better, as he was created from fire, and Adam from clay. His arrogance brought about his ruin, God cast him out and he asked God for respite until the last day. Satan vowed to lead man astray, but God promised he wouldn’t be able to lead astray the righteous believers in the Oneness of God.

Angels have been blessed with powers that enable them to carry out their specific duties. They praise God and automatically obey his commands. They cannot disobey him. Angels are unlike man. They do not sleep, eat, require what humans need.

The angel Gabriel appeared before Prophets, delivering messages from God. There are many different angels carrying out various duties. There is the angel of death called Izrael, and Israfil is the angel who will blow the trumpet on the last day. Every human is assigned an angel and it is their duty to record your every action and your every word.

Anyhow I just wanted to share a muslims perspective. I think many people aren’t aware of Jinn and often confuse Jinn with angels and other things as well.

Man and Jinn have been given free will to make their own choices. Man is tested and will be judged on Judgement Day. Angels are obedient and submissive loyal servants to God.

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/proof_of_living_jennies.htm
http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/Angels.htm

 

[dauer]

There is also the idea, within Judaism, related to the role of the angel, that they don't live or die, but that they appear when God wills a need for them and are gone when there is no longer a need for them. Some angels, there will always be a need for them. And some are needed for very specific things.

It is also said that angels are standing and humans are walking, in regard to free will. While angels will begin on a higher level, because a human has the ability to choose he can climb higher. So I voted no as well.


That is not to say that I believe in angels, but I believe that their myth is too beautiful and constructive to be rejected entirely, that is to say that it is not a matter of belief, but of poetry, that keeps me thinking in terms of angels because on another level there are no angels, no transformers, and all is God.

So I guess it's wrong of me to vote no or yes on the poll. Eh.

 

[path_of_one]

Now as for angels...

I said no. Angels are a Judeo-Christian-Muslim mythological creature- by mythological I do not mean false, but rather supernatural and requiring faith. Both Christianity and Islam rose from the foundations of Judaism, and Judaic scripture does not maintain that angels have free will, but rather that they are the messengers of God. Christians interpret Isaiah 14:12 as the fall of Lucifer, the Angel of Light, becoming Satan. However, Jews strongly maintain that this passage refers directly to Babylon and King Nebuchadnessar, as 14:4 directly names Babylon as the subject of prophecy: "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon." I am not sure why Christians interpret this as the fall of Lucifer and other angels, when it clearly prefaces the prophecy with the statement that it is about Babylon, which also makes perfect sense if you know the story of Babylon.

Satan, meaning "adversary," was the angel of death and temptation. He could only act in accordance with God's will, just as all angels did. Angels in the OT were not all about helping people out- they were also messengers of stuff people didn't want to hear. Satan tested people's moral fabric.

As a mystic, I do not think that the supernatural is limited to God and angels, so I have no problem believing angels are as the scriptures say they are- messengers of God, or extensions of His will, without free will, and yet still thinking there are other "supernatural" entities that do have free will. As one Irish woman put it in an interview- "You have God and Satan and angels over here, and faeries over there." That is, God and Angels (of which Satan apparently is one) do not preclude the existence of other realities and folks in them that we perceive as supernatural and/or spiritual, be they dragons, faeries, nature spirits, or whatever. I think, depending on our worldview, we interpret a wide variety of mythological creatures as fitting into systems to which they may not be a part. Thus, the faeries of the Celts became translated as angels and demons by Christianity, though people who believe in faeries and say they have experienced them say they are neither angels nor demons. I think some spiritual entities do have free will, but angels are not one of them, by their definition by the scripture of the cultures/religions that record them.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by path_of_one
Satan, meaning "adversary," was the angel of death and temptation.

Actually, Satan (ha-satan) was merely the "prosecuting attorney" angel (bananabrain can explain better than I am.)

Now, to answer the main question: I don't think that angels have free will.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Paladin]

That is not to say that I believe in angels, but I believe that their myth is too beautiful and constructive to be rejected entirely, that is to say that it is not a matter of belief, but of poetry, that keeps me thinking in terms of angels because on another level there are no angels, no transformers, and all is God.

So I guess it's wrong of me to vote no or yes on the poll. Eh.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a particularly poignant perspective Dauer, and since we have defined Angels to some degree, how about defining what we mean by "Free will?"

Some have said that man, having this free will can choose to either believe in God or not. But what kind of choice is this? To many who believe in an ultimate reality, or Divine Presence,this would be akin to a fish not believing in water!

Philosophers have wrestled with the idea of free will for centuries, and certainly it seems that we indeed have the power of choice, what we shall build, how we orchestrate our lives, in effect, what kind of picture do we draw with the crayons we were given at birth?

As we draw nearer to the Divine Presence, and consumately become more conciously in line with Divine Mind, so to speak, to choose to believe or not would become a moot point .
Perhaps a being or entity (the Angels) so close to the Divine source would not need the kind of Free Will that serves only to separate man from his actual divine nature.

 

[JJM]

[font=&quot]I think angels did have free will but they have a nature in which they won't go back on the original decision they made and since this original decision was to either support God or Reject him then they don't really have it anymore.[/font]

 

[dauer]

You raise a good point, Paladin. And something you raise also besides what is "free will" is "why don't angels have free will?" or rather "what is it that makes humans different from angels in this regard?" within this assumption that they don't. From a Jewish perspective free will is the ability to choose between the yetzer hara, evil inclination, the base drives (which are not actually evil in and of themselves) and the yetzer tov, the good inclination, which is the ability to get beyond them and traditionally to follow the mitzvot, the commandments.

I think the difference between the Jewish and Christian ideas comes from the fact that Judaism is covenantal and Christianity is based on belief. Issues in Christianity often revolve around belief whereas in Judaism they often revolve around action, although there are of course exceptions in either case.

I'm not sure how the Jewish concept of free will would relate to the angels, who are spiritual beings.

But on this matter of distance, there is much that Jewish mystical tradition has to say. But I am not qualified to talk on that much. Simply put, the beings of higher worlds, as it were, are more exposed to the oneness of God and less aware of their individuality. I'm also pretty sure that they do not partake of the klipa, the husk which is the absence of God, but I could be mistaken. But in this case the angels are often created by us through our actions (and maybe thoughts too) to send messages up the worlds or even, through our negative actions, to create evil, godless ones in the klipa. And here the image of the electric tower with the transformers becomes a little more clear, each angel carrying up to a higher angel and so on, or each angel carrying down from God in the same manner.

Dauer

 

[Quahom1]

I think belief is not the issue. Choosing to accept, may be more accurate. We see this played out in everyday life. Consider court cases where the defendent refuses to accept the judgement given him, regardless of his inability to do anything about it. Defiance to the end, is very obvious in humans, why not angellic beings as well?

Free will is very much a part of what God seems to hold endearing to man. Like He wants and hopes we will "get it". We aren't "Pinnochio". Or perhaps we are, without the strings attached...But that would mean we are not yet fulfilled (we aren't fully Human yet).

Angels...how did pride, anger and contempt develop in them? That is a very interesting question (the fallen ones). But we know that it did (based again on scripture). Please all, don't debase scripture as being in error, as without it we would not be having this conversation...in the first place. Let's look at it logically as we have been.

v/r

Q

 

[Paladin]

Q,

I do not think anyone here would be so neglectful of common courtesy as to debase scripture with the intent to offend anyone, however it would be helpful if we understood that a literal interpretation of scripture was the underlying premise of the discussion. It appears that several contributions to this discussion assume that an allegorical approach to scripture is acceptable.
The difference might decide whether our logic is inductive or deductive, not so?

 

[dauer]

There is nothing in my chumash that says angels fell.

But let us say that angels did fall. If this is true, what is to say that God didn't let them? What is to say that this was due to free will, and not due to God's own willing? What would the effect be for God to let angels fall, looking from the big picture?

 

[Quahom1]

Q,

I do not think anyone here would be so neglectful of common courtesy as to debase scripture with the intent to offend anyone, however it would be helpful if we understood that a literal interpretation of scripture was the underlying premise of the discussion. It appears that several contributions to this discussion assume that an allegorical approach to scripture is acceptable.
The difference might decide whether our logic is inductive or deductive, not so?

Really...

 

[Geist]

I believe in Guardian angels and they have free will. But looking at angels from the Bible it also seems that they have free will aswell otherwise how could they fall from grace without freedom to choose? and freedom to choose implies that they have free will.

 

[Bandit]

Hi All,

I saw this in another forum (Cross and Flame, for those of you who know it), and thought it might add to this conversation.

from: http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

Note, I removed several paragraphs to keep it from being too long, but I found the whole read quite interesting and helpful in understanding this view.



Hmm, guess it's still quite long. It seems to support the idea that at least in some circles of Jewish belief Satan does not have free will, nor is he fallen, but simply doing God's will. Interesting.

lunamoth

the only thing with that one is, God would be telling Satan & the 1/3, to do evil and cause chaos & confusion. I dont think God does this because HE is not the author of those things...but rather allows all until the Great Day...

why dont we have an angel thread in Christianity?

 

[dauer]

the only thing with that one is, God would be telling Satan & the 1/3, to do evil and cause chaos & confusion. I dont think God does this because HE is not the author of those things...but rather allows all until the Great Day...

That would make sense if it were a quote to help understand the Christian position, but it's a quote to understand the Jewish position in which God makes peace and creates evil, in which all things are from God and there is no Ultimate Power besides God.

It is said that when anything happens in the world it is because an angel makes it so. When the grass grows it is because an angel is saying, "Grow! Grow! Grow!" But why does the angel say "Grow?..." God willed an angel and willed that it should say grow. Even with Hasatan.

It is silly to judge a Jewish view of angels by Christian texts or a Christian view of angels by Jewish texts. That is not to say we cannot discuss the similar and dissimilar nature of angels, or discuss the textual basis for views on angels, but clearly the Jewish view is not the Christian view and the Christian is not the Jewish.

why dont we have an angel thread in Christianity?

This was in the Christian section but it got moved.

Dauer

Edit: And the Muslim is neither Jewish nor Christian.

 

[mee]

"And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)​

​

Angels were created as spirit creatures, having the prospect of eternal life in heaven. (Psalm 103:20; 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) That was their beginning, their "original position." "Their own proper dwelling place," or intended habitation, was in the invisible heavens. But certain angels presumptuously forsook their proper heavenly home. The apostle Peter said that they "sinned," and immediately thereafter he cited events of Noah’s day. (2 Peter 2:4, 5) This draws attention to the preflood time when "the sons [the fifth-century Alexandrine Manuscript of the Septuagint Version says "angels"] of the true God," apparently by materializing fleshly bodies, disobediently took good-looking women as wives. (Genesis 6:1, 2) Since cohabitation with women was unnatural for spirit creatures, these angels sinned by yielding to what for them was totally wrong desire. (James 1:13-15) Similarly, the "ungodly men" of whom Jude spoke desired to have immoral relations with persons of the opposite sex.​

​

What happened to the disobedient angels served as a warning to Christians of Jude’s day, and serves as a warning to christians of modern times. Although those angels could escape death in the deluge by dematerializing, they were prevented from returning to their "original position" as holy spirit creatures enjoying the light of God’s counsel and approval. Rather, they have been reserved with "eternal bonds," with God’s powers of restraint, until the divine "judgment of the great day" of their destruction. Meanwhile, there is no indication that they can materialize fleshly bodies, and they remain out of Gods service, in dense spiritual darkness, in so-called Tartarus.—2 Peter 2:4

 

[path_of_one]

I hope my post wasn't offending people. As this isn't in the Christian forum, I just answered based on my reading of the scriptures and based on the Jewish understanding of angels and Satan to the best of my knowledge, and answered also from my own viewpoint since it is in the "mysticism" area. I was not trying to debase scripture in any way, but simply pointing out what I had found based on rabbis discussing this subject. I was, in fact, trying to uphold what I felt to be the correct reading of the scripture. There are OT scriptures, for example:

"See I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." (Deut 30:15) KJV

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7) KJV
that indicate that God is indeed, according to the Bible, the creator of all things, both good and evil (evil as in "adversity" and "calamity"). That is not to say that God creates our sin, but that He created a world with both good and temptation, good and adversity, for us to choose with our free will the narrow path.

I do think there are other spirit beings that do have free will and may choose to turn away from God just as we can. That is based on a complex amalgam of mythology and what fits with my own intuitive experience, but I figure I can state that here since it is a mysticism forum.

It is indeed unlikely that a unified answer will come out of this, because as I understand it Jewish, Muslim, and Christian viewpoints on angels are quite different based on related but different religious traditions. I'm finding the various views quite interesting, though. I didn't realize this was originally in the Christianity forum- I'm guessing it really was meant to ponder on "in Christianity, do angels have free will?" In which case, according to the mainstream traditions I know of, yes, since some of them became Satan and demons in the Christian worldview.

 

[Paladin]

Really...

Q,

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what this means. I do wish to impress upon you how seriously I take another's beliefs and mean no offense!

"If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended..."

 

[Quahom1]

Q,

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what this means. I do wish to impress upon you how seriously I take another's beliefs and mean no offense!

"If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended..."

No worries. It means I was thinking aloud about what you were saying.

You really can't see my head nodding in this forum...

v/r

Q