eternal life

[Faithfulservant]

I am looking solely at what Jesus said. Follow the commandments to inherit eternal life. What contradicts this statement made by Jesus? Show me the passage. Jesus said follow the commandments, not if you do a, b or c or if you were born before or after. he was clear in his reply. Jesus never said that after my resurrectyion if you believe in me you'll have eternal life. he was preaching the kingdom of God here on earth. The kingdom is within you. Case and point.

Faithful, your statement that nobody is good was very disturbing to me. Is this what you really believe, that nobody is good? Why don't you reconsider that. I believe the majority of people in the world are inherently good. Everybody is tempted to do evil but that does not make them evil people.

You say only Jesus was good. Look at Mark 10:18

I stand by what I said... noone is good.. only one who is without sin is good. Jesus knows our hearts.. He knows our intents. We are plagued by evil thoughts all the time.. we cant help it. The person who does good every day of their life is not pure in thought or deed.. or intent. We have a sin debt that we build upon every day of our life we cannot pay it back without Jesus Christ. Its not possible. Sin is also following short of Gods glory which all of us do. Not following Gods will is a sin..

It would be like paying off a $10k debt on your Visa with your Mastercard.. you never pay off the principle.

Jesus also said that He and His Father are one.. and He said to the disciples that they did not need to see the Father because they saw Him. Jesus was showing that He was wholly man in that verse and later showing that He was also wholly God.

Anyone that says that they are good and can make it to heaven on that merit is deceived... It is impossible to make it to heaven on works alone.. Jesus said it Himself that He is the way and that noone can get to the Father except by Him.

I would also suggest that a better translation is that The Kingdom is in your midst rather than within you. Many scholars agree on this fact.

 

[lunamoth]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

Matthew 5: 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pretty clear that Jesus not only upholds all the 10 commandments, but extends them radically. The point, I think, is to show us what the Kingdom of God is.

We are good, but we are not perfect. Yet Jesus tells us to be perfect.

Jesus was fully God and fully human (I know, I know, not logical. But you can't get there just using your head). Therefore He was fully good. He also tells us not only that we can be, but that we must.

Thus the need for grace. As Faithfulservant says, we can't be perfect for even one hour (when we're awake, anyway), much less for our whole life on earth.

 

[didymus]

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

I am asking for all that don't agree with this to give me verses that would dispute it. I personally believe that Jesus was a firm believer in the law and the commandments and he went even further. He taught that, sure you can do these things and be good and go to heaven for it. But I have more to offer you. Follow me and I will show you rebirth, the kingdom of God here on earth. You can walk with God here, you can meet God here. You can be born again. The kingdom of God is within you, it is all around you.

This can be illustrated by those folks you know who go to service or mass and sing and share and pray with everyone else but haven't experienced that "born again" experience. They are good people and are sincere but haven't really tapped into God in that deep transcending way. Know what I'm talking about?

I think people have taken Jesus' teachings from him and turned them into something else.

 

[lunamoth]

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

I am asking for all that don't agree with this to give me verses that would dispute it. I personally believe that Jesus was a firm believer in the law and the commandments and he went even further. He taught that, sure you can do these things and be good and go to heaven for it. But I have more to offer you. Follow me and I will show you rebirth, the kingdom of God here on earth. You can walk with God here, you can meet God here. You can be born again. The kingdom of God is within you, it is all around you.

This can be illustrated by those folks you know who go to service or mass and sing and share and pray with everyone else but haven't experienced that "born again" experience. They are good people and are sincere but haven't really tapped into God in that deep transcending way. Know what I'm talking about?

I think people have taken Jesus' teachings from him and turned them into something else.

From where I sit didymus it looks like people here are not disagreeing with your first paragraph except to tell you why from this alone they do not draw comfort, except through accepting Jesus as Lord.

 

[didymus]

Do you acknowledge that Jesus said, "follow the commandments to inherit eternal life'? Yes or no?

 

[lunamoth]

Dear didymus, let's look at the whole passage.

The Rich Young Man
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

So, no, it's not just to follow the ten commandments to inherit (note, not earn) eternal life. One must also give up all one has and follow Jesus.

That's my read on it, anyway.

Peace,
lunamoth

 

[Quahom1]

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

Go back up, I think you missed my second post. If not, then you didn't answer my question either.

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

Luna, I think you'll better understand what i am saying by rereading the very first post I did on this topic.

Q- out of everybody I feel that you know where I'm coming from. At least more than most. Actually you didn't ask a question, at least i didn't see it. truthfully I think what you said diverges from the comment Jesus made. Those are post Jesus theories( if I'm not mistaken)

 

[lunamoth]

Yes Q, I am implying that there was a clear differnce between eternal life and the kingdom of God. One had nothing to do with the other. The kingdom of God was heaven on earth, a true dying to the self born again experience. This I believe is at the heart of what Jesus preached.

Dear didymus,

I'm getting confused by your distinction between Kingdom of God and eternal life. Please correct me, you say:

Kingdom of God = right here and now, starting with a "born again" experience

eternal life = after earthly life and earned by not breaking the 10 commandments, nothing to do with the Kingdom of God

Well, I guess I don't agree with this distinction. I do think the Kingdom of God is right here and now, Real all the time, evident to us in glimpses, to be completed when Christ returns in glory.

As for a "born again" experience, I do not think one has to "feel something transcendent" to be born again.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Quahom1]

Q- out of everybody I feel that you know where I'm coming from. At least more than most. Actually you didn't ask a question, at least i didn't see it. truthfully I think what you said diverges from the comment Jesus made. Those are post Jesus theories( if I'm not mistaken)

That came straight from the Bible, no theories. OT, NT and Revelations. I didn't make that up, nor did I go looking for someone else's interpretation. I'm only guilty of paraphrasing into modern English and leaving out the verse numbers.

Except for the end where I said I agree.

However, I am going to now go pull every comment Jesus allegedly said, or was quoted as saying, and see if it matches up with the rest of the Bible prophets and authors...

v/r

Q

 

[lunamoth]

Dear didymus, I think I do understand where you are coming from. You are talking about the fact that everyone "good" is "saved" as defined by "not going to hell when one dies." And you are distinguishing it from the establishment of the Kingdom of God right here on earth, which will be accomplished by following Christ.

Am I getting warmer?

lunamoth

 

[didymus]

Dear didymus,

I'm getting confused by your distinction between Kingdom of God and eternal life. Please correct me, you say:

Kingdom of God = right here and now, starting with a "born again" experience

eternal life = after earthly life and earned by not breaking the 10 commandments, nothing to do with the Kingdom of God

Well, I guess I don't agree with this distinction. I do think the Kingdom of God is right here and now, Real all the time, evident to us in glimpses, to be completed when Christ returns in glory.

As for a "born again" experience, I do not think one has to "feel something transcendent" to be born again.

Hi Luna, yes, i think Jesus made a clear distinction between eternal life and kingdom of heaven in his statement to follow the commandments. Until jesus was questioned further by the man he said nothing of the kingdom of God and what he can do to enter it. Jesus' answer to eternal life was follow the commandments.

In John 3:3 Jesus said," in order to see the kingdom of God one must be born again." This is clearly present tense, not after death but here and now. I tied this comment in (among others I have read of kingdom of god)with his statement to sell all belongings and give to the poor. These are acts that one would not do unless thoroughly convicted by God. People with such strong convictions usually talk of a born again experience. See what I am saying?

 

[lunamoth]

Do you acknowledge that Jesus said, "follow the commandments to inherit eternal life'? Yes or no?

Hi didymus, I think what I was responding to earlier about this post is it is like saying "just dig through the core of the earth with a teaspoon and you'll get to China."

Yes, we all strive to keep the commandments, but no one keeps them perfectly. If keeping the commandments perfectly, and not just "pretty close," were the requirement then no one would inherit eternal life. Whatever that means.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[didymus]

Luna, you lost me on that one.

Can you answer yes or no the question , did Jesus say '"obey the commandments", to inherit eternal life?

There is no reason to read further into this than you are doing.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna, you lost me on that one.

Can you answer yes or no the question , did Jesus say '"obey the commandments", to inherit eternal life?

There is no reason to read further into this than you are doing.

Dear didymus, this is getting confusing isn't it! I thought I already answered this question.

first layer response, no, Jesus did not say the quote as you state it above verbatim.

second layer response:

lawyer: did you see the man enter the store with a gun
witness: yes, but...
lawyer: just answer the question, did you see the man go into the store with a gun
witness: yes, but he...
lawyer: yes or no!
witness: yes

third layer of response: reflecting on the whole passage:

The Rich Young Man

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28Peter said to him, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29“I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields–and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” (Mark 10, NIV)

The Kingdom of God starts now and continues in the age to come, eternal life. A continuum, starting whenever and wherever you are. And one must give up everything to enter/inherit it. And with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

It's a very simple answer.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[didymus]

Yes it is simple. You are taking 2 parts of the conversation that Jesus had with the rich man and combining them.

1st part, the man asks "how do I inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers,"obey the commandments." This was Jesus' answer to the man's question. Jesus said nothing more than this until questioned again. Do you see this? The man had eternal; life already according to Jesus because he said he obeyed the commandments.

2nd part, Man states ,"but I already do that"

Jesus gives another answer, "one thing you lack, Go sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. then come follow me." (also see Luke 12:32-34)

Now he is talking of treasure in heaven although he speaks in the present tense.

the man is sad because he is rich. Jesus comments that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is referring to 2 different things here. Eternal life and Kingdom of God.

 

[Quahom1]

Yes it is simple. You are taking 2 parts of the conversation that Jesus had with the rich man and combining them.

1st part, the man asks "how do I inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers,"obey the commandments." This was Jesus' answer to the man's question. Jesus said nothing more than this until questioned again. Do you see this? The man had eternal; life already according to Jesus because he said he obeyed the commandments.

2nd part, Man states ,"but I already do that"

Jesus gives another answer, "one thing you lack, Go sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. then come follow me." (also see Luke 12:32-34)

Now he is talking of treasure in heaven although he speaks in the present tense.

the man is sad because he is rich. Jesus comments that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is referring to 2 different things here. Eternal life and Kingdom of God.

No, Jesus was waiting for the other shoe to drop...see the rich man was not satisfied with the answer, and knew there was something more. So Jesus waited for what was about to come from the rich man who truly wanted to know. Jesus told him and the rich man's eyes and heart fell. Jesus said you see how hard it is with much (in life) to let go? Jesus is referring to the same thought that the rich man originally posed..."How do I?"

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

Q- he was waiting for the other shoe to drop?! Where do you get that from? I'll give you that one if you admit that it is pure speculation on your part. My theory is connected to what Jesus said. I am not speculating or interpreting anything here.

 

[Quahom1]

Q- he was waiting for the other shoe to drop?! Where do you get that from? I'll give you that one if you admit that it is pure speculation on your part. My theory is connected to what Jesus said. I am not speculating or interpreting anything here.

Sure it is, based on personal experience Did. How many times has someone asked a question and you answered it completely, but without embellishment, knowing it would only cause the asker, to ask another question? The rich man wanted more than just eternal life (which he got the answer to that part of his question answered in whole). He wanted more, but the cost to him was more than he was ready to accept (at that time, which is another speculation, since we do not know what ever happened to that rich man once he left, saddened).

Here is another speculation, based on the rich man's dissapointment, I think he thought he could have his cake and eat it too.

But then I am speculating, and live much of my Christian life based on speculation (read that as it works for me...)

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

Now I agree with you. He was looking for more than just eternal life in the future. he wanted something now not just 20-30 40 years away. He wasn't being fulfilled as much as he would have liked by just obeying the commandments. Jesus offered him more than eternal life, he offered him heaven on earth, the kingdom of God.